 |
| Matilda Lawler as MARGE, Amanda Christine as RONNIE, Clara Stack as LILLY |
The finale of season 1 is in the books, and Steve and I meet one last time to recap the heck out of this final chapter. We do one last found of Easter eggs, detail each characters' overall arc, and hand out awards to our favorite characters and moments. To see all of our weekly recaps, go here.
We highlight the episode's strengths, such as its horror elements and special effects, while also acknowledging its narrative flaws. More than any other episode, this last chapter seemed to work overtime to connect to pre-existing IP, both through name dropping and cameos. Sure, these things are cool, but only if they are done in a realistic way and not just as fan service.
 |
| Bill Skarsgard as PENNYWISE |
Key takeaways include the significance of viewer engagement through Easter eggs, the balance of horror and emotional weight, and the ongoing conversation about character relationships in a small-town setting.
 |
| Matilda Lawler as MARGE, Clara Stack as LILLY, Blake Cameron James as WILL, Amanda Christine as RONNIE |
We hope to see you all again for seasons of Welcome to Derry and other projects.
 |
| Amanda Christine as RONNIE, Blake Cameron James as WILL |
Lindsey Dunn is a film critic with membership in both NC Film Critics and Southeastern Film Critics. She loves all things Cobra Kai, Netflix Dark, indie horror, and any stories about complicated relationships. You can find her at 1ofmystories.com and most social channels @1ofmystories.
00:00:01.59
Lindsey Dunn
Hello and welcome to Welcome to Derry. I'm Lindsey Dunn, your host of the One of My Stories podcast. And with me today is your other host from the Sweet Child of Time podcast.
00:00:14.70
Lindsey Dunn
He's got a serious case of the I told you so's tonight. It's Steve Barnes. Ahoy and beep beep, Steve.
00:00:22.33
Steve Barnes
Oh, beep, beep, Lindsey. Yes, we got a beep, beep in this episode. How are you tonight, Lindsey?
00:00:29.14
Lindsey Dunn
I'm good, Steve. I'm i'm ready to ready to talk about this last episode. And we were commenting on how cold it is.
00:00:38.72
Steve Barnes
Oh, yeah.
00:00:39.89
Lindsey Dunn
We need some fire to thwart off the cold. We got some winter fire tonight. And here we are at episode seven, winter fire. So what were your overall reactions to this episode?
00:00:51.37
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm.
00:00:52.41
Steve Barnes
Well, yeah, um I've got a a lot of thoughts. I put most of them at the end of my notes, though, for, um you know, for for the benefit of our conclusion and rating of the episode and season and stuff like that.
00:00:58.97
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:01:05.91
Steve Barnes
um But from the get-go here, I'll just say um this episode I think things were a bit unclear, AKA foggy. There was a ah lot going on that was cloaked under the fog, so to speak. So I think there was some key points that could easily be missed.
00:01:25.53
Steve Barnes
And, um, there's some key things that occurred that were kind of questionable, I guess. So I hope that our discussion can be helpful to anyone who might've missed anything in this episode.
00:01:33.47
Lindsey Dunn
Thank you.
00:01:37.72
Steve Barnes
But yeah, like um it didn't end well. I'm just going to say like, i'm I'm not thrilled with the ending. I'm not thrilled with the episode. have more key points later on about that, but I did have fun. And I think that's the most important thing is like to have fun when you're watching shows like this, because this show is not, it's not here to save anyone's lives. It's here to entertain us and be scary. And you know, it, it succeeded in that respect.
00:02:05.62
Steve Barnes
Um, I don't have a glowing review for my overall thoughts.
00:02:06.52
Lindsey Dunn
huh
00:02:09.34
Steve Barnes
How about yourself, Lindsey?
00:02:11.46
Lindsey Dunn
okay well we're on the same page I think right um I think that overall the special effects that were in the episode tonight combined to give us probably the season's best horror moments with the fog and all of the ample Pennywise time if you
00:02:15.83
Steve Barnes
ah
00:02:29.81
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:02:34.36
Lindsey Dunn
If you want more Pennywise, here you are.
00:02:36.28
Steve Barnes
Oh, God.
00:02:36.76
Lindsey Dunn
We got lots of Pennywise this time. Lots of Bill Skarsgård. So you have probably as a... If you're looking for a horror show, this gives probably the best horror episode, which is fitting for the grand finale.
00:02:50.71
Lindsey Dunn
But like you said, there were a few parts of that that seemed forced and a little silly.
00:02:55.55
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:02:56.47
Lindsey Dunn
And at the same time, it almost didn't have enough weight because when you look at the overall picture... You killed one kid and then Tanyal. So it almost felt like it's felt very horror, at the same time, overall, if you're thinking about a whole cycle, it doesn't feel like it was weighty enough to me, kind of what happened.
00:03:23.74
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:03:25.69
Lindsey Dunn
The emotional beats that we got sort of at the end, some of it was heartfelt and appreciated. But i felt cynical about some of the things that they tried to land at the end, which maybe is some of the fog you're referring to Also, too many leaks took away from any power those final moments could have had because there was a pretty big leak that was out there.
00:03:52.31
Steve Barnes
Sure.
00:03:56.20
Lindsey Dunn
And I i kept ignoring that leak. And I kept saying, like, this can't.
00:03:59.13
Steve Barnes
OK.
00:04:01.66
Lindsey Dunn
really be that. This has got to be something else. It cannot possibly tie, um you know, it can't possibly tie into this original Losers Club character.
00:04:13.31
Lindsey Dunn
But it did. And I think everybody who's been listening knows I do not like when they feel like they have to tie all the characters in to, oh, it's this person's mom and this person's dad and and they're all related.
00:04:25.41
Steve Barnes
OK.
00:04:29.36
Lindsey Dunn
And it felt like there was just a lot of that that was forced in there. and I just don't like that. I don't feel like it's natural. That's not the way life is.
00:04:38.51
Steve Barnes
Hmm.
00:04:38.64
Lindsey Dunn
We don't get everybody related to each other. and it could be cool when, if you look at the time travel angle they've left us with, which we'll get into later, some of that could be work better than I think.
00:04:53.59
Lindsey Dunn
I just think they need Bo. They need Baron Bo over our Nyantre Freeze if you're going to do this because it would it should have been With all the cool things they set up, it should have felt really powerful, but it didn't. It just felt kind of forced at the end there.
00:05:07.95
Steve Barnes
Hmm. Yeah, I got a couple couple rebuttals for you, too. um When you say things connect, when say things that you don't like when things are connected and you don't like how like the that angle of it.
00:05:17.78
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:05:20.54
Steve Barnes
I think it's interesting that we're that you have you and I do in this podcast because I love those type of connections. um So I have the opposite. You know, I'm not saying you're right. or I'm not saying I'm right, but I like those connections. I like finding out so-and-so is connected to so-and-so.
00:05:36.89
Steve Barnes
And I think in the Stephen King universe and especially in a town like Derry, I think that's going to definitely happen because it's a small town. So it's, you know, small towns beget small families and, you know, their names carry on.
00:05:54.04
Steve Barnes
So I think that kind of makes sense in our story, like especially a small town like Derry. So, um, that's where I'm coming from with the connectivity. So i like it where you don't like it.
00:06:05.53
Steve Barnes
But we both agree that we need more Bo in this. beau um Baron Bo Odar and Yonte Fries. And that's something I wanted to to just briefly mention is that there was a Reddit AMA earlier this week that the Muschietes did, andy and Barbara.
00:06:20.43
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:06:22.01
Steve Barnes
And... um Much like this episode, it it was kind of, it was kind of, uh, it was kind of clouded. It was kind of foggy. They only answered 23 questions all told, and they haven't gone back to the AMA. This AMA was like three days ago or more.
00:06:39.90
Steve Barnes
And, um, They haven't gone back to answer any of the questions that people have asked. The usual Reddit AMA is somebody will announce they're doing it a few days ahead of time. People will start asking questions. Sometimes the host will jump on early and start tackling some of the early questions or some of the easy questions. And then the time the AMA happens, there's a lot of interaction generally.
00:07:03.51
Steve Barnes
And It usually lasts for a couple of hours. And then when it's over, usually within this frame of the next couple of days, the person who hosts the AMA will go back and um answer the questions they weren't able to answer. Like in those couple of hours, they did it.
00:07:19.96
Steve Barnes
Well, the machetes were only doing it. They only did it for maybe 45 minutes. Like I said, they answered exactly 23 questions. And then Andy said, this is too much. I can't handle it. And he bailed and they never returned back to it again. So I thought that was, and they didn't answer my question, which was when is Baron Bo Odor and Yonte free is going to be part of this. And are they going to be part of this? And of course that question was not answered.
00:07:47.00
Steve Barnes
Um, So, yeah, I didn't I didn't enjoy their AMA. It is on there under the R slash horror subreddit. If you want to go and check it out. um Barbara Muschietti has started another AMA by herself. So I think we might get more answers with hers. So I need to go after her.
00:08:06.20
Lindsey Dunn
I see. I wondered if the if English is their first language and they were having to translate the questions into their language and then answer them and then translate them back into English or something.
00:08:19.36
Lindsey Dunn
So it might have been, it might have taken longer than we think.
00:08:22.05
Steve Barnes
Hmm. That's nice of you to give them an excuse, but I don't think that's the case.
00:08:23.74
Lindsey Dunn
And
00:08:27.99
Steve Barnes
Hmm.
00:08:30.04
Lindsey Dunn
maybe it's their first AMA and they didn't realize what it was going to be like.
00:08:33.08
Steve Barnes
m Not that either.
00:08:33.85
Lindsey Dunn
I know...
00:08:34.58
Steve Barnes
They've done it before.
00:08:35.99
Lindsey Dunn
I will say, okay, I will say I did an AMA once and I set clear rules about what questions people could ask and what kind of questions I would answer.
00:08:39.00
Steve Barnes
Mm
00:08:47.06
Steve Barnes
hmm.
00:08:47.18
Lindsey Dunn
everybody ignored the the rules that I set up and asked me all kinds of questions I couldn't answer because it was a spoiler-free AMA about Cobra Kai because I had seen some of the episodes early.
00:08:55.00
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:08:58.58
Lindsey Dunn
So they asked me if I could do an AMA and I said, well, I can, but I cannot answer any i can't talk about any spoilers but then of course everybody was asking me who wins this fight who is that fighter or though they'd say well i like this character will i be happy and i'm like how am i supposed to know if you'll be happy or not
00:09:09.21
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:09:22.55
Steve Barnes
Well, yeah, that's, that's the, uh, the power of the Reddit AMA host. You know, you have all these powers and responsibilities.
00:09:30.33
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, well it was not ah it was not a Reddit AMA, it was a Discord AMA.
00:09:34.97
Steve Barnes
Even so.
00:09:36.08
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm, yeah. Well, yes, they did not answer your question.
00:09:42.26
Steve Barnes
Or the 600 other questions that that were presented to them.
00:09:42.42
Lindsey Dunn
um
00:09:46.01
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:09:47.74
Lindsey Dunn
But I think some of the some of the flaws that perhaps we were noticing would not be present if we had some other particular people join the team.
00:10:00.22
Steve Barnes
Yeah, perhaps.
00:10:00.38
Lindsey Dunn
Even, yeah.
00:10:00.98
Steve Barnes
I think, I think like, uh, it seemed like this was kind of geared towards like a younger audience where it seems like, um, Bo and Yonte shows are geared.
00:10:11.90
Steve Barnes
They don't seem like they're geared towards a younger audience at all. Where I see like clear evidence of like this show, it being, you know, geared towards younger viewers.
00:10:24.19
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm. I don't know if I get that sense. But.
00:10:29.43
Steve Barnes
I just, I think so yeah Just because just from the dialogue and just from the, the resolution and the acting and like moments, like the characters are running to the tree and then they stop and they say, look, it's the tree.
00:10:43.05
Steve Barnes
We're almost there. And then they start running some more.
00:10:45.59
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, some of that dialogue was a little weak.
00:10:45.77
Steve Barnes
Yeah. ah
00:10:50.85
Lindsey Dunn
I was going to bring that up. But let's look at some Easter eggs because it's Easter time.
00:10:57.75
Steve Barnes
Yeah, it's it's Easter time. That's right.
00:11:02.18
Lindsey Dunn
It's Easter time, four months early.
00:11:05.95
Steve Barnes
That's right. um I got a few. like I took my basket out. i thought it was going to be kind of hard finding some in this last episode, but um I managed to find a couple. Did you find any, Lindsey?
00:11:16.72
Lindsey Dunn
I found some. I think this was, I found more in this episode than have in some of the other previous episodes.
00:11:22.04
Steve Barnes
Oh. Okay.
00:11:24.34
Lindsey Dunn
But, you know, remember last episode I only had two.
00:11:27.22
Steve Barnes
That's right.
00:11:27.22
Lindsey Dunn
So it doesn't it's not going to be hard for me to say I got a few more.
00:11:31.74
Steve Barnes
Larry, will you go first then? What you got?
00:11:34.04
Lindsey Dunn
Well, i already kind of gave my first egg away, but it was the whole beep beep. Beep beep Margie.
00:11:39.90
Steve Barnes
Okay, a little dialogue. All right, that's cool.
00:11:42.18
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:11:43.16
Steve Barnes
um Okay, let's see. I'm not going to choose my first one here. a couple episodes, did we talk about the the liquor called Old Grandad by any chance?
00:11:53.42
Steve Barnes
Did we have a conversation about that?
00:11:54.74
Lindsey Dunn
We haven't talked about that, but I did notice the old granddad and I was trying to remember why that seemed familiar.
00:12:01.62
Steve Barnes
Yeah, he, um, he was, he being Dick Halloran was drinking that this episode. That's my Easter egg.
00:12:07.16
Lindsey Dunn
Mm hmm.
00:12:08.12
Steve Barnes
Um, he was also drinking it at the black spot and he was calling it pap. And that's something that a common nickname people call this liquor is pap. And I never knew I'm 53 years old. I'm not a drinker and this might be explained why, but I've never heard of this liquor old granddad, but it really explains something to me, which is this George Thorogood song called I drink alone.
00:12:33.43
Steve Barnes
And it's ah it's a cool song, but he talks about how he's a drunk and he drinks by himself. And in one of the lines, he says, the only one who will hang out with me is my old granddad. And he's talking about this liquor, of course, but I didn't know that.
00:12:47.51
Steve Barnes
i I thought he was talking about, oh, my granddad's a drunk too. And we hang out together. So I took it quite literally. I didn't know it was a liquor.
00:12:57.72
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, and it it I noticed that bottle. I didn't have a chance to watch the episode a second time, but I might have looked at that a little closer. But I can't remember if it's been mentioned in other books or if I have a friend that said they had drank some old granddad.
00:13:16.07
Lindsey Dunn
It's supposed to be some pretty powerful stuff that Dick Haller is drinking. But good one. um i My next one is going to be... ah Dick Halloran saying, how much trouble can a hotel be?
00:13:31.70
Steve Barnes
Okay. Yeah, that's right. um i think that was, that was a pretty big, I think that was almost like Christmas tree territory instead of an Easter egg territory. Cause that's like pretty, pretty big one.
00:13:43.21
Steve Barnes
I thought um a big, ah
00:13:44.79
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I mean, most of my most of my remaining eggs are pretty Captain Obvious.
00:13:49.78
Steve Barnes
Oh, no, no, no. I'm not trying to, I'm i'm not trying to down you.
00:13:51.16
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:13:52.32
Steve Barnes
That's definitely an Easter egg, but it's one that like the machetes, like, I think they like, they put like big lights on that one.
00:13:53.85
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:13:58.49
Steve Barnes
I think, ah um, my next one, I think is, I think it's, I think this is really fun.
00:13:59.32
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:14:04.51
Steve Barnes
Um, when they're up in the standpipe, they be in the three girls and they notice the fog for the first time. They're like doing some like spring cleaning or something.
00:14:13.11
Lindsey Dunn
who
00:14:13.24
Steve Barnes
And that box that Lily has is um, It's C it says CCM matched set on it. And it it caught my eye just because it was words. I looked it up. They're ice skates.
00:14:26.65
Steve Barnes
So like they would have come in handy later on in the episode. But for right now, she has a pair of ice skates up there with her.
00:14:35.03
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:14:37.88
Lindsey Dunn
um My next one is ah is also from the end of the episode. Mrs. Kirsch saying, you know what they say about Derry. No one who dies here really dies. And of course, that's repeated in this show. It's repeated in It Chapter 2.
00:14:55.58
Lindsey Dunn
So it's a recurring line that It's like a Leonardo DiCaprio moment from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. We all snap our fingers and point when she says that.
00:15:05.83
Steve Barnes
That's right. She said it. I think it's like three times now that she says the magic phrase three times.
00:15:09.36
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:15:11.93
Steve Barnes
Um, I guess my next one will be the, um this one was kind of funky when they were leaving town and like the, the big sign that said like, you know, you're now leaving Derry and it had the Paul Bunyan up there.
00:15:24.50
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:15:25.70
Steve Barnes
It also had one of those signposts on it that says who sponsored the billboard and it's the Legion of white decency. they They're the, they're the guys who put that billboard up.
00:15:35.96
Lindsey Dunn
Oh, man.
00:15:38.83
Steve Barnes
So they're still in town running wild.
00:15:41.91
Lindsey Dunn
They paid for it?
00:15:43.43
Steve Barnes
Yep. Oh yeah. You think they would hate, uh, hate Paul Bunyan cause everybody else does. Hmm.
00:15:49.75
Lindsey Dunn
Well, they might be the ones that like Paul Benyon, but give me so gimme we need some eggs to throw at that billboard. They sponsored it
00:16:00.47
Lindsey Dunn
I mean, my last Easter egg would be the Marsh family at the end.
00:16:08.34
Steve Barnes
The, the, the Marsh fan.
00:16:08.44
Lindsey Dunn
It's also the Marsh family, Beverly, her dad, old Alvin, Alvin and the Chipmunks, and Elfrida is I guess her mom's name, that that they show up, which I don't like this Easter egg, but it's an Easter egg.
00:16:11.51
Steve Barnes
Oh, Beverly and her dad there.
00:16:27.22
Steve Barnes
ah
00:16:28.57
Lindsey Dunn
Or maybe it's not an Easter egg. Maybe it's an Easter omelet at this point, you know, because it's another Pretty obvious one.
00:16:36.02
Steve Barnes
Yeah, my my last two are pretty obvious too. um I'll do a rapid fire.
00:16:38.65
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:16:40.38
Steve Barnes
We got Maturin again.
00:16:40.82
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:16:41.94
Steve Barnes
He's hanging out and he got um Pennywise floated and he's pretty worthless this whole series. He didn't do much of anything. And then my very last one would be, um, when Pennywise sheds all his, um, manifestations, like towards the end, we get another view of Lily's dad. And we also get to see the little funky demon baby again.
00:17:08.54
Lindsey Dunn
Right. The demon baby. And ah all the, I guess that was his other manifestations that he was shedding one after another.
00:17:17.40
Steve Barnes
Yeah. That, Yeah, I guess so. I don't know why he chose to do that, but you know, it was cool looking. So I'll, I'll i'll give it a pass.
00:17:26.90
Lindsey Dunn
You know, he does that in the the first movie when the kids kill, when they kill him.
00:17:35.51
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:17:36.02
Lindsey Dunn
He kind of goes through his greatest hits.
00:17:39.22
Steve Barnes
ah
00:17:40.60
Lindsey Dunn
And then the whoever the kid is, that that's their fear. They stick it with one of their weapons. But in this case, it was just one person really facing that creature down.
00:17:48.60
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:17:55.06
Lindsey Dunn
so
00:17:56.34
Steve Barnes
You know, sometimes I like when movies do that. I think what's, what's it centers that did that?
00:17:58.68
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:18:01.15
Steve Barnes
Like at the end of the movie, they kind of like went on this little like trip down memory lane. And that made me like the movie more because of the way they ended it with that little, like, Hey, remember when all this cool stuff happened in the beginning of the movie?
00:18:15.59
Steve Barnes
Well, remember it as you walk out. So ah yeah, that was, that's a good thing to do. Pennywise and Shaw, his little fears like, Hey, you remember when I did this Lily?
00:18:28.34
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, now I don't remember which character was standing there when he did it right at the end. But yeah, I guess it doesn't matter. So are we ready to go into some characters?
00:18:41.26
Steve Barnes
Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:18:42.78
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:18:42.89
Steve Barnes
Let's burn this burn through these characters. You, you, um, yeah, you kind of brought you, we brought, we're going to bring back kind of everybody. We're going to be like the last time we're discussing all these people.
00:18:53.34
Steve Barnes
So going to give them all like a little pat on the back. Goodbye. Right.
00:18:56.75
Lindsey Dunn
Everybody who's still alive. Some people didn't make it.
00:18:59.06
Steve Barnes
Right. If you're dead, screw you.
00:18:59.63
Lindsey Dunn
Mr. Kirsch. Stan Kirsch.
00:19:01.30
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:19:02.06
Lindsey Dunn
He's gone.
00:19:02.90
Steve Barnes
Yeah. No more honorable mentions except for that one.
00:19:05.53
Lindsey Dunn
so
00:19:07.19
Steve Barnes
ah
00:19:08.25
Lindsey Dunn
um Okay. So we do have a few groups, but we're going to mainly talk about these guys as individuals so we can talk about their overall arc. So the first one i'm going to start with is Ingrid. Okay.
00:19:23.67
Steve Barnes
Yeah, she wasn't too much in this episode. We only saw her as a kid for like five seconds or so.
00:19:30.01
Lindsey Dunn
And she that was at was that was actually a ah memory that Dick Halloran was planting in his mind.
00:19:38.58
Steve Barnes
Oh, oh, okay. That's the, yeah, that's right.
00:19:41.16
Lindsey Dunn
It wasn't even real.
00:19:41.66
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:19:43.77
Lindsey Dunn
But that that was confusing for a minute because i one didn't understand that that was Dick Halloran. i I thought that they were trying to show us how his time travel works.
00:19:51.96
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:19:57.27
Lindsey Dunn
That maybe... that men when when Bob Gray woke up, like i thought i was I bought it for a minute. I was thinking, I was thinking maybe, oh, maybe Bob Gray wasn't dragged off by wolves.
00:20:06.20
Steve Barnes
Yeah, me too.
00:20:11.63
Lindsey Dunn
Maybe he just woke up, but he there was something off with him. And maybe Pennywise possesses him every now and again. i thought they were setting up our new time travel situation for us to put it into place. But no, that was Dick Halloran. Messing with Pennywise and slapping him around a little bit.
00:20:33.53
Lindsey Dunn
oh
00:20:34.55
Steve Barnes
Yeah, he did get get a punch in there. That was pretty nice. So that wasn't Ingrid then, but we did see Ingrid, I guess, like in the post credit kind of thing, like at the very, very end.
00:20:39.06
Lindsey Dunn
It was not.
00:20:45.88
Steve Barnes
um
00:20:46.42
Lindsey Dunn
Before the post credits, we do see her as she's a new patient at Jupiter Hill.
00:20:46.65
Steve Barnes
We see her.
00:20:52.28
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:20:52.85
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:20:53.72
Steve Barnes
So. What ah what time frame was that? Was that like was that happening in like after like the fog happened?
00:21:04.45
Lindsey Dunn
I think so. Yes. It's it. That's a now memory. Cause there were, it was kind of like after they wrapped up everything with Ronnie and the Hanlons are leaving town, not the Hanlons, um the Grogan's when the Grogan's have left town, then they cut to Jupiter Hill and we see Ingrid and she's upset and like, where have they taken my father?
00:21:12.95
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:21:16.38
Steve Barnes
Yes.
00:21:30.30
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:21:30.34
Lindsey Dunn
Where have they taken him? And then they put the record on to calm her down.
00:21:32.07
Steve Barnes
Well, that's...
00:21:36.06
Steve Barnes
And then we cut to the older Ingrid.
00:21:37.85
Lindsey Dunn
Yes.
00:21:38.46
Steve Barnes
Okay, so that was 1962. We see like the Ingrid with the black hair as we know her like in our in this season. And I guess that's why it confused me because she was talking about the handkerchief and talking about where is my dad.
00:21:53.52
Steve Barnes
And I was like, what?
00:21:54.04
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:21:56.15
Steve Barnes
I guess she's just talking about that because of what she just experienced, which was she was in the dead lights of Pennywise in the last episode.
00:22:03.38
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:22:04.80
Steve Barnes
And then when he got whisked away, you know, we saw Leroy wake up from the dead lights. We saw the kids wake up from the dead lights. Therefore Ingrid woke up from the dead lights too, but now she's more confused than she was previously.
00:22:22.71
Lindsey Dunn
It feels like the dead lights could be almost like brain damage. In order to recuperate, you need somebody to kiss you passionately. There was no one there to kiss Ingrid.
00:22:32.89
Steve Barnes
Right. You need the power of friendship. That's right.
00:22:37.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I mean, Hank, I guess Hank Grogan wasn't really all that concerned concerned or attached to Ingrid because he didn't really seem to wonder where she was.
00:22:50.33
Steve Barnes
Well, I don't think they had a real, you know, in-depth relationship. um And if they did, it was It was by design from Ingrid, so he probably feels used by her.
00:23:06.04
Lindsey Dunn
yeah I think it's still a a little unclear what her status is. Obviously, we see her, her she's confused. Then we see her in the time jump. She's painting.
00:23:17.30
Steve Barnes
But she's still in Juniper Hill, though.
00:23:19.30
Lindsey Dunn
She's still in Juniper Hill, right? So, i guess what I'm saying is, though, we know that eventually when Beverly comes to her old house, she sees a Mrs. Kirsch person there.
00:23:38.74
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:23:38.74
Lindsey Dunn
is is she seeing a real Mrs.
00:23:40.46
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:23:42.29
Lindsey Dunn
Kirsch or is that a Pennywise manifestation? Because if that was 1988, then that means in 27 years she'd be pretty old.
00:23:57.38
Lindsey Dunn
So, um yeah, i think I think we were, i was thinking they were going to be a little more on the nose with Because they've been so on the nose about some other things.
00:24:07.46
Lindsey Dunn
Like, why couldn't they have been a little more on the nose about Mrs. Kirsch? Because when you yeah when you see her in the movie, she's running around and tall and naked with her boobs swinging back and forth, you know, so.
00:24:12.82
Steve Barnes
Yeah, I guess so.
00:24:22.46
Lindsey Dunn
um That wasn't her.
00:24:23.54
Steve Barnes
That wasn't her though, I guess, after all. So like this, I mean, I guess they used that character to give us this cool character of Ingrid, but otherwise that was just some old lady that Pennywise was being.
00:24:35.49
Steve Barnes
So that remains the the same.
00:24:36.41
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:24:39.48
Lindsey Dunn
So maybe the real Mrs. Kirst just died in Juniper Hill.
00:24:44.86
Steve Barnes
that's That's my guess, yeah. Just of of old age while she was doing some painting.
00:24:50.24
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. That seems very sad.
00:24:53.82
Steve Barnes
I mean, I guess so. Maybe she wasn't like eating or anything, so there's a plus side to that.
00:24:58.42
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:25:02.55
Steve Barnes
And plus she's, you know...
00:25:06.29
Steve Barnes
she's She is brain damaged. I mean, it's pretty clear. So, I mean, yes, it is sad, but at the same time, I mean, she's she's in the place where she's getting care, and it seems like they're allowing her to have plants and paint and stuff, so she's doing the best she can.
00:25:23.55
Lindsey Dunn
It's a calm environment.
00:25:25.40
Steve Barnes
Yes. Well, until, you know, the lady down the hall decides to off herself.
00:25:33.46
Lindsey Dunn
Okay, should we move forward?
00:25:35.26
Steve Barnes
Yes.
00:25:36.66
Lindsey Dunn
So we're now going to talk about our patty cakes slash our high schoolers.
00:25:44.76
Lindsey Dunn
i All I can say is bravo to it because, or Pettywise, because he hypnotized them all with his talent show. And then he, then he pied Piper them all on a grand march.
00:25:53.24
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:25:57.94
Lindsey Dunn
They, I mean, they were enthralled by his performance and He was led led them on town in a giant parade and everybody was enjoying the music and the show, apparently, because they followed behind.
00:26:11.26
Steve Barnes
Yeah. I got a bit to say about Pennywise and all this. We're going talk about him next, but I'm going to stick to the the high schoolers and patty cakes.
00:26:16.22
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:26:18.10
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:26:18.37
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:26:18.54
Steve Barnes
They, um, I guess like those flyers that the kids see, the girls see him on the standpipe because you know, like you said, he's got all the kids like floating out and then like they see all the flyers pasted on the standpipe. So I guess that was just a hallucination that he just whipped up those flyers.
00:26:38.07
Steve Barnes
as part of a hallucination because you couldn't print those out that quickly and then put them all in and like the most inconspicuous spot where like no one in town will see them except except for kids because that place is abandoned.
00:26:38.36
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:26:42.04
Lindsey Dunn
No.
00:26:49.72
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:26:51.02
Steve Barnes
Let's not forget. But um when it comes to the patty cakes, though, there's no redemption for these girls.
00:26:52.79
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:26:58.42
Steve Barnes
I had talked about in previous episodes how they were going to turn good at some point or somebody was saying how one of them deserves to die and all this stuff. But they're just straight up.
00:27:10.25
Steve Barnes
They're going to grow just to be shitty Derry adults. You know what I'm saying? They're like shitty kids. You're just going to be your typical Derry adults when they grow up. No redemption, no nothing.
00:27:22.07
Lindsey Dunn
I didn't did you have any clarity on the fact that when they went to the gym the three main patty cakes they're they're talking about who would make the ugliest baby which was I guess mildly interesting when you think about all the maternal horror we've had with babies um but the the third one that
00:27:28.99
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:27:40.47
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:27:43.22
Steve Barnes
Yes.
00:27:43.70
Lindsey Dunn
was always chewing the gum.
00:27:43.82
Steve Barnes
Mush mouth.
00:27:45.98
Lindsey Dunn
they They just had her like all of a sudden...
00:27:52.15
Steve Barnes
ah tried I tried. mean, the, the subtitles said my parents, and then it didn't say anything after that. And there's no discernible syllables I could make out whatsoever.
00:28:02.63
Lindsey Dunn
I don't mean... don't mean what she said. just mean why did they throw that in? Because she wasn't talking like that before. Unless they just had her...
00:28:14.46
Lindsey Dunn
Has she not had any dialogue this whole show and I just didn't notice? I know she's mainly chewing her gum and and smiling and nodding, but I didn't think that she was talking like a mush mouth the whole show.
00:28:20.47
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:28:28.21
Lindsey Dunn
So I wondered why they threw that in unless it was just to make a joke like, oh, this is why we haven't given her any lines.
00:28:35.48
Steve Barnes
I mean, in my mind, like, like, yes, she hasn't had any lines. She just chews gum. She snaps the gum. She blows bubbles. At one point she chokes on her gum.
00:28:46.23
Steve Barnes
So this is the final episode.
00:28:46.42
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:28:48.73
Steve Barnes
And it's like, she finally gets a line.
00:28:49.33
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:28:51.45
Steve Barnes
What's she going to say? And that's what she says. So that, that was my perspective that was it was a joke.
00:28:54.75
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:28:58.12
Steve Barnes
And to me, it did pay off. It's like, You know, you're not you're not sure what's going to happen in this scene. They're just having like this banal conversation. And yeah, I think it's just played up for humor. And I think it works. It passes the humor test with me anyway.
00:29:13.75
Steve Barnes
I liked it.
00:29:14.84
Lindsey Dunn
yeah I thought it was a little silly though that Pennywise brought them all out there and then the spell is broken and they all just run home.
00:29:28.18
Steve Barnes
they They fell on that ice really hard. There were some twisted ankles, some busted heads. Did you notice that too?
00:29:36.89
Lindsey Dunn
I didn't.
00:29:37.94
Steve Barnes
Like they were, I mean, they were floating and then they just thumped to the ground and it looked like it hurt. So I was a little concerned that they, they had fallen from that.
00:29:48.42
Steve Barnes
Like they were about, cause the girls were trying to reach will and they were reaching up with their hands. So they're probably five feet tall.
00:29:54.17
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:29:55.27
Steve Barnes
They could probably reach up to six feet. So the kids are like seven, eight feet in the air. And then they just fall onto like the hard ice impact.
00:30:04.12
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:30:05.77
Steve Barnes
I'm worried.
00:30:05.75
Lindsey Dunn
It just seems like it just seems like it was, there should have been more carnage um from Pennywise doing this. it it's another I guess it's another one of those things that is supposed to be a grand epic thing that He had all these kids in his wake.
00:30:25.46
Lindsey Dunn
But then to not do anything with it, again, just felt a little weak sauce.
00:30:32.05
Steve Barnes
not going to disagree with you. um But I will move us forward to our next character, if that's okay.
00:30:37.27
Lindsey Dunn
Right. Okay. Yeah.
00:30:39.96
Steve Barnes
Our next character is Pennywise, played by Bill Skarsgård.
00:30:43.30
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:30:43.67
Steve Barnes
He deserves the crown, man. They did a great job, especially this episode.
00:30:48.29
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:30:49.50
Steve Barnes
In my notes, this is what I wrote down, is that Pennywise is excited that the pillar is broken. He wants to party. He grabs all the kids and plans to explore the world.
00:31:02.90
Steve Barnes
That's my simple explanation for you is like, he's really excited that he can finally break free and can leave Derry. So he gets his wagon and he has as a line of children and yeah, it's done for us. The audience. It's done for the the rule of cool, I guess you would say, because it looks cool to have a bunch of kids floating in a single line across a lake of ice.
00:31:25.66
Steve Barnes
But I mean, I got to think that's the only reason it could be happening is because Pennywise is like really amped up, really excited.
00:31:33.27
Lindsey Dunn
i like the visual effect of him grabbing the kids it's that's not the part that i'm complaining about it's that wouldn't he have maybe had a little snack before i don't know it just it just felt like none of those kids got hurt and yeah he wanted to leave daria he wanted to go on his tour
00:31:48.09
Steve Barnes
he,
00:31:53.94
Lindsey Dunn
But yeah, is that is that what you're saying? and Just that he wanted to wait until he got out of Derry to do anything?
00:31:59.48
Steve Barnes
No, he's already full. He's ah he was already getting ready to, like, hibernate for his period because he's already he ate like 23 people at the black spot.
00:32:08.42
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:32:08.63
Steve Barnes
So, you know, he's full. He doesn't need to eat, but he does, you know, want to have plenty of food when he's on his little road trip. So he packed up some snacks.
00:32:16.24
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:32:17.78
Steve Barnes
That's that's what I think anyway.
00:32:21.14
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:22.71
Steve Barnes
um and I mean, I kind of agree. I think the whole concept is, um I mean, in a word, a little hokey. um Maybe it's something that old fashioned clowns are into. I don't know, like commandeering all the kids into a single room and hypnotizing them and taking them in a line with your clown wagon. I mean, yeah, it's absolutely silly.
00:32:44.92
Steve Barnes
um But, you know, we're in the realms of a Stephen King horror show. That's not a good excuse, I guess. It doesn't really explain anything away, but I mean, I'm just going to chalk it up to pure excitement.
00:32:59.70
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I just think something would have happened. Like, maybe he wouldn't have eaten somebody before, but once the kids dropped and they fell, they all just, what I mean, then they fell hard. They all just went home. That's it.
00:33:15.22
Lindsey Dunn
nobody tried Nobody stayed to help. They all just ran home. It just felt like there could have been more characters involved in this ending.
00:33:19.99
Steve Barnes
yeah
00:33:25.34
Steve Barnes
It would have been pandemonium. You're right.
00:33:26.81
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:33:26.94
Steve Barnes
If this was like a real life event, yeah, those kids would have been all hanging around, not knowing what to do, getting in the way. But, but Tanyal, luckily Tanyal was there to lead them to the North shore.
00:33:38.84
Steve Barnes
So that's all he had to do was say, go to the North shore. And then all the kids went there like obedient little children.
00:33:45.72
Lindsey Dunn
okay
00:33:45.94
Steve Barnes
No questions asked. So, i mean, that's kind of what we have to go through here. We have to go through no questions asked.
00:33:51.38
Lindsey Dunn
yeah that's true that's true um so like Pennywise himself yes this was this was a great performance for him in this in this final episode I thought he was horrific the thing in the gym the song in the gym
00:33:52.82
Steve Barnes
If you want to enjoy this, don't ask any questions.
00:34:11.93
Lindsey Dunn
Then him leading the kids out and his interactions with the characters on the ice as he's getting to the, trying to get off the boundary, get out of the boundary before they're able to get the shard in there.
00:34:31.65
Lindsey Dunn
It was a good performance. Bill Skarsgård was doing his thing. He had great clown makeup. He had that nice change into the bird.
00:34:40.67
Steve Barnes
Oh, his delivery is great with every line.
00:34:42.07
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. hu
00:34:43.13
Steve Barnes
Um, even though the lines are corny, like he, he delivers them really well. And the way he's like gleefully skipping when he like thinks that he's going to win and he skips past everyone with a little smile on his face. I mean, that's, that's pure gold. It's good stuff.
00:34:58.62
Lindsey Dunn
And he skips in slow motion sometimes.
00:34:59.04
Steve Barnes
It,
00:35:00.94
Lindsey Dunn
That's impressive, too.
00:35:03.36
Steve Barnes
He chooses whether he wants to go fast and be everywhere at once. And if he wants to go really slow and allow the others to win, has kind of like a 50, 50 for him.
00:35:16.87
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:35:18.23
Steve Barnes
And let's see the, I was going to say at the very beginning of the episode, um, is the I think, I think it's when we first get our first glance of Pennywise because we,
00:35:18.39
Lindsey Dunn
There was, oh go ahead.
00:35:31.54
Steve Barnes
this episode starts like inexplicably with the fog rolling in. Like we just had the black spot last episode. And like you were saying, um I'm, I'm going back and listening to our last episode where you were talking about how you were disappointed.
00:35:45.50
Steve Barnes
Like you were like, what they going to build us up to? What's going to be the the next big thing. And really the black spot should have been the big event this, this season, in my opinion, they could have skipped this whole thing.
00:35:57.21
Lindsey Dunn
So you're agreeing with me.
00:35:58.77
Steve Barnes
I'm agreeing with you.
00:35:59.99
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:36:00.60
Steve Barnes
But at the very beginning, this is what I'm trying to come back to. I kind of lost my train of thought while I was running my mouth there. The fog is rolling in and you see that girl at the hobby shop and she has that creepy smile while she's watching the fog roll in.
00:36:17.58
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:36:17.97
Steve Barnes
I'm pretty positive that was Pennywise or that was a reflection of Pennywise based on her teeth and her smile. Do you agree with me?
00:36:26.97
Lindsey Dunn
Right. Yeah.
00:36:28.89
Steve Barnes
Okay. So that's our first appearance of Pennywise in the episode. He lets the fog roll in.
00:36:35.35
Lindsey Dunn
The first appearance of the entity.
00:36:37.30
Steve Barnes
The entity it.
00:36:37.59
Lindsey Dunn
Right. when you say if for When you say first appearance of Pennywise, I'm thinking on the stage when he sang the song song with the to the kids.
00:36:38.86
Steve Barnes
Okay. Let's be clear. ah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:36:48.69
Lindsey Dunn
um Yeah, he explains, he stops to explain his plot.
00:36:55.29
Steve Barnes
yeah
00:36:55.48
Lindsey Dunn
typical Typical mastermind behavior.
00:36:58.55
Steve Barnes
He didn't have to do that.
00:36:58.71
Lindsey Dunn
he i know. He didn't have to do it.
00:37:00.82
Steve Barnes
ah
00:37:01.92
Lindsey Dunn
He did it because Mushietis needed to let us know what was going on. So he stopped to explain to Marge what was coming for whatever for whatever reason.
00:37:10.87
Steve Barnes
Yes.
00:37:14.90
Lindsey Dunn
that was It was just because of the plot that he did that. But it seemed little silly.
00:37:20.41
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:37:22.00
Lindsey Dunn
And
00:37:24.54
Lindsey Dunn
and That part seems silly, but it did give us that cool moment where he's frozen and Dick Halloran then gets into his mind.
00:37:32.69
Steve Barnes
Oh, yeah.
00:37:35.92
Lindsey Dunn
Because at first I was like, what is going on here? Is he is he showing Marge? He just told her his plan.
00:37:45.94
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:37:46.55
Lindsey Dunn
so is he freezing so that she could absorb the horror of this moment?
00:37:52.02
Steve Barnes
Exactly.
00:37:52.80
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:37:53.88
Steve Barnes
That's it.
00:37:53.88
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:37:54.82
Steve Barnes
It threw me through a loop to the first time.
00:37:56.81
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:37:56.98
Steve Barnes
and i And I still, I, when I finished that episode, the first time through, I still wasn't a hundred percent clear. Um, so I'm, I'm guessing that maybe some listeners maybe aren't clear about how that went down.
00:38:09.56
Steve Barnes
What exact, can I say like what exactly happened there?
00:38:12.86
Lindsey Dunn
Sure.
00:38:14.62
Steve Barnes
is that's the exact moment that Dick Halloran managed to get inside Pennywise's mind at that exact same moment. It was just lucky coincidence for Marge.
00:38:22.44
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:38:25.78
Steve Barnes
And so at that moment, when he gets in Dick's mind, you know, Dick and it Pennywise are like stuck in like this frozen dead light state where they're both like just basically catatonic.
00:38:40.63
Steve Barnes
Meanwhile, what's happening inside their head is that whole, you know, waking up as Bob Gray thing, getting slapped by the carny and eventually kicking Dick out of the ah out of the wagon.
00:38:52.44
Steve Barnes
And then when he kicks Dick out of the wagon and realizes that he's inside, um you know, Dick's fantasy, Dick's head, then that's when he finally wakes up. And when he wakes up, it's not Marge standing in front of him anymore. Now it's Shaw because some time has passed.
00:39:08.57
Steve Barnes
So yeah, that was really confusing. And it was, you know, that's all due to Dick Halloran being able to do this trick. Tricky Dick, just like ah Pennywise called him.
00:39:20.57
Steve Barnes
And I still don't quite understand how Dick Halloran is able to do this and how he's um able to like, you know manifest those exact same thoughts.
00:39:32.06
Steve Barnes
But we're talking about Pennywise here. we'll We'll get to that question in a moment.
00:39:34.17
Lindsey Dunn
Right. mean, think we saw something similar in Dr. Sleep. when um When those characters, when et Ewan McGregor and the little girl who's in that, they go into Rose's mind and she thinks that they're in Danny's mind.
00:39:53.91
Lindsey Dunn
or she thinks she's in the little girl's mind and she's actually in Danny's mind. And when you're in there, they can manipulate your thoughts, I guess, and make you think you're in a different place than you are.
00:40:06.81
Steve Barnes
Right, but he was in Pennywise's... He went into Pennywise's mind, though. And so somehow he got into Bob Gray's mind with Bob Gray's stuff, too, I guess, because...
00:40:11.80
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
00:40:16.92
Lindsey Dunn
Right. Because Bob Gray is still inside of him. Okay.
00:40:20.44
Steve Barnes
He just ate him. That's right. Well, he didn't just eat him, but he ate him. That's right. He told Ingrid that he's in his belly. So, okay, that makes sense then. So, like...
00:40:31.13
Steve Barnes
Yeah, he is kind of omniscient. um He can answer questions as soon as they're asked. Basically, we see that in this episode where somebody asks a question and then like he throws a flyer at them and then like that's the answer to their question.
00:40:48.12
Steve Barnes
So yeah, that I guess that answer is that that that satisfies my answer, that he's omniscient and he has Bob Gray's memories inside there. Because that was one of myque one of my queries that um I didn't quite understand. So I i can accept that one.
00:41:03.72
Steve Barnes
I'm okay with that one.
00:41:05.17
Lindsey Dunn
Right. it's ah It's a little bit of a reach, but it it worked.
00:41:07.70
Steve Barnes
Yes. But it works, though. yeah
00:41:10.21
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:41:10.55
Steve Barnes
We reached, we got it. We grasped it.
00:41:15.40
Lindsey Dunn
Alright, well I'm ready to move forward to our next little pair here.
00:41:19.80
Steve Barnes
Yeah, we'll so what' we Pennywise will come up again. Don't worry. I'm fine with that.
00:41:23.86
Lindsey Dunn
we We're never worried about Penny Flies. He's going to come up again. We'll be talking about him again.
00:41:28.47
Steve Barnes
Absolutely.
00:41:30.74
Lindsey Dunn
So we're going to move on to Rose and Tanyol.
00:41:35.65
Steve Barnes
All righty. Rose misses the Earth as a conductor. That's right. We all know that, Rose.
00:41:45.02
Steve Barnes
What I have a question for you, though, because this is something that um you might be able to figure out using context clues, but I was not.
00:41:46.94
Lindsey Dunn
OK.
00:41:53.24
Steve Barnes
She um she goes to help Dick. She she decides or shouldn't decide. She's part of the gang now. She's going to help Dick out and she gives them this mature and root.
00:42:08.21
Steve Barnes
And she gives him this warning. She's like, okay, you know, you might get sleepy, but remember don't. And then just like the girl with the bubble gum, like her words get jarbled and we don't actually know what she said. do you know what her warning was?
00:42:27.81
Lindsey Dunn
No.
00:42:29.30
Steve Barnes
Me neither.
00:42:34.39
Steve Barnes
Listeners, let us know if you know what Rose's warning was, because it doesn't seem like, you know, there was any rules where Dick went.
00:42:42.36
Lindsey Dunn
She made special tea. This is, it's funny because on the, since I was with my parents in the car, sometimes they like to listen to our podcasts and
00:42:45.56
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:42:50.97
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:42:54.94
Lindsey Dunn
And we did a podcast on The Amazing Mr. Blunden.
00:42:59.09
Steve Barnes
Oh, they listen to that one. Okay.
00:43:00.47
Lindsey Dunn
Yes, we listened to that one because they're familiar with that movie.
00:43:03.64
Steve Barnes
Okay.
00:43:03.93
Lindsey Dunn
And we were talking, Nate kept talking about the specialty in that movie that they mix to time travel.
00:43:08.92
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:43:12.05
Lindsey Dunn
And we were making jokes about how sometimes they say you time traveled by drinking alcohol. Or special tea. And then, so here, she makes this special tea.
00:43:20.97
Steve Barnes
That's right.
00:43:23.21
Lindsey Dunn
That was almost going to be my joke at the beginning when I introduced you, Steve. That she made this special tea to calm his visions. Because we're where I thought you were going with it is the purpose of this tea was to calm the voices in his head.
00:43:40.44
Lindsey Dunn
And because he was, you know, all those dead people, the spirits were talking to him. And he was trying to get him... He needed a clear head.
00:43:51.42
Lindsey Dunn
So she gave him the tea, but... What exactly did it do?
00:44:01.18
Steve Barnes
I mean, it seemed like it closed the box again that Dick had because he stopped seeing the um the dead people that he didn't want to see.
00:44:14.71
Lindsey Dunn
Right. And she said one When one door opens, another one closes. So was the door that was opened, was it a connection to the shard?
00:44:29.94
Steve Barnes
That's the only thing i could ascertain, is that he was opening a door to be able to connect with the Shard, And that when he's able to do that, he closed the box lid onto like the spirits that he doesn't want to see.
00:44:45.43
Steve Barnes
they didn't explain that at all, but that's just the assumption that I made when she's, when she said, you know, the, the door and opening and closing thing.
00:44:48.33
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah,
00:44:55.17
Lindsey Dunn
and she says something about that it's a connection to evil, but not everything in there is evil. So that was that was interesting.
00:45:06.68
Steve Barnes
I think that was just foreshadowing, um, seeing rich and seeing the bareheaded, um, Indian woman again, because they're definitely not evil.
00:45:14.65
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm.
00:45:16.73
Steve Barnes
And I think that's what she was referring to. um there there's, I'm really confused about that aspect and we'll get to it when we get to it.
00:45:27.38
Steve Barnes
Um, But I believe that that the door is being opened and closed just to have to do with the dagger and with not not having to see those scary spirits anymore. And when he's not having to see those scary spirits anymore, then he can focus on his task better.
00:45:46.57
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:45:49.08
Lindsey Dunn
So Rose gets to play warrior a little bit. You know, she's with she's with the group.
00:45:53.46
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:45:56.60
Lindsey Dunn
She's not at a meeting.
00:45:59.28
Steve Barnes
She's clutching a gun the whole time.
00:45:59.75
Lindsey Dunn
She's not at the... Yeah.
00:46:00.92
Steve Barnes
like the Even the last time we see her, she's got an Uzi on her.
00:46:05.69
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I was really hoping that there was going to be some sort of interaction with her and General Shaw at the end.
00:46:14.33
Steve Barnes
Yeah, that...
00:46:14.94
Lindsey Dunn
But there wasn't. They were just both on the ice and he was focused on his work and she was focused on her nephew. But i would have thought that would be something they would have put in there.
00:46:27.26
Steve Barnes
Right. I mean, it seemed like it would make perfect sense to like wrap that up in some way because they were really harping on that for at least two episodes and it kind of went nowhere. So that was a little upsetting to me.
00:46:40.02
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. All the things that they did wrap up and really wanted to make the connections, they left that one sort of open. Maybe it's because they we're going to see these characters again in the past.
00:46:55.74
Lindsey Dunn
I don't know. But it, that was, that was, yeah, that makes me sad. And Taniel, Taniel's arc makes me sad because i do feel like his character got used, ill used by the show.
00:47:07.29
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:47:12.58
Lindsey Dunn
Even with the,
00:47:14.30
Steve Barnes
Maybe.
00:47:15.14
Lindsey Dunn
Renewed focus they gave indigenous people in this show. it It still feels like he came in He was a on the hill looking through his goggles.
00:47:27.75
Lindsey Dunn
Then he gets tortured.
00:47:28.03
Steve Barnes
hmm. Yeah.
00:47:29.56
Lindsey Dunn
He goes back on the hill and through the goggles.
00:47:32.34
Steve Barnes
yeah
00:47:32.60
Lindsey Dunn
He gets called in and he gets shot. I mean, Why? why i mean, that's upsetting.
00:47:41.53
Steve Barnes
I mean, I agree. it is like the only thing i was trying to go back and think about what he really did to like, you know, um, you know, add to the gang to do his part. And the main thing he did basically was, you know, when Dick got into his mind and he learned where the pillars were.
00:47:59.64
Steve Barnes
And other than that, He was just kind of an observer, just like us the whole time, just kind of watching everything that was going on and asking the same questions we were.
00:48:09.88
Steve Barnes
Um, he looked great while he did it. And I was really ex I mean, you and I were both expecting a lot more from this guy. We were kind of theorizing and like before the first episode came out that he was going to be a big character and he was going to have, you know, a big part in this. And, um, you know, that kind of a disappointment.
00:48:29.02
Steve Barnes
He did manage to show up every episode. So that was, you know, that was kind of cool. We got to look, we got to see him every episode, but not that much.
00:48:37.59
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I mean, somebody was theorizing that Tanyal is in the, is in the it movies, the Muschietti movies that he, that his
00:48:46.93
Steve Barnes
Hmm.
00:48:47.29
Lindsey Dunn
not not his Not this actor, but when they have the scene where Mike Hanlon is showing older Bill the you know the shell and the the piece of the shard that's in the future, that he was
00:48:47.42
Steve Barnes
Guess not.
00:48:51.35
Steve Barnes
The character.
00:49:06.42
Lindsey Dunn
kind of and he his character was in that scene. But I guess not. He got shot. And i just i i was kind of thinking,
00:49:12.60
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:49:16.66
Lindsey Dunn
Why did you have to, you know, really we have two characters in this show. We have Tanya and Rose that represent our indigenous people. There were other people, but those were the two mains.
00:49:27.77
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
00:49:28.34
Lindsey Dunn
And of course, 50% of them had to die at the end. Mm-hmm.
00:49:34.65
Steve Barnes
I had really high hopes for this too, because at first you're like, Okay, we got the dagger and we got Daniel and we got Leroy, the man without fear.
00:49:44.91
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:49:46.42
Steve Barnes
And the two of them have the dagger and they're going to take the magic dagger to the magic tree. And they're going to like do the thing and it's going to be awesome. That's what I was thinking. Because like when they were like, yeah, we're teaming up. I'm like, hell yeah.
00:50:00.28
Steve Barnes
This is like the team up we've been waiting for. Only to be shot down by the military right right away.
00:50:07.16
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:50:07.61
Steve Barnes
So yeah, that was disappointing. They they built Tanyal up and then they shot him down.
00:50:13.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:50:14.30
Steve Barnes
hu
00:50:14.42
Lindsey Dunn
I mean, I thought pretty much I thought everybody was going to die except for, except for, except for Leroy and Will Hanlon, that everybody else, because we know that the cycle went terribly or it should have gone terribly, but it people complain about stranger things, how they don't want to kill off any of their characters.
00:50:19.86
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:50:24.73
Steve Barnes
Exactly.
00:50:39.07
Lindsey Dunn
So their cast just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
00:50:39.51
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:50:41.91
Lindsey Dunn
And here, almost the same thing. Like I'm not, I don't want our kid characters to die, but, They killed one kid, which was our precious rich.
00:50:52.60
Lindsey Dunn
And then they killed, they killed tan Daniel, but everybody else lived to see another day and and move on.
00:50:52.88
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:50:59.93
Lindsey Dunn
I mean, he was, we we kept, we kept saying, will Lily please give the shard to somebody else. And she finally gives it to Mr.
00:51:08.82
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:51:10.81
Lindsey Dunn
Hanlon. He's gives it to Daniel. So yeah, that should have, this should have been a good team.
00:51:16.50
Steve Barnes
Yeah, that that um that could have been the the team up of the year. um No dice there. I will say for Daniel and Rose, um the brakes on their van, i mean, exquisite.
00:51:23.96
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:51:31.94
Steve Barnes
Did you see like they're on ice and they're able to skid into like ah skid into a halt right in front of some kids before killing them. It was pretty amazing. um The.
00:51:44.54
Steve Barnes
Might as well ah head over to the end of this because Rose after Tanyul dies, she can no longer, she doesn't want to keep up with her farm and all the goats and stuff. She wants a simpler life.
00:51:53.43
Lindsey Dunn
hu
00:51:54.81
Steve Barnes
So she wants to hand her, um, her livelihood over to the Hanlon. She wants to give up the farm.
00:52:01.18
Lindsey Dunn
And is this where she hands off the store to Stephen King?
00:52:07.35
Steve Barnes
yeah Probably so. i guess it's going to happen behind the scenes.
00:52:12.36
Lindsey Dunn
wonder if she was leaving Derry or if she was just leaving the farm.
00:52:17.18
Steve Barnes
It seemed like she was leaving Derry to me.
00:52:20.22
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. m It may be. So maybe this is when she leaves the store to to Stephen King. I don't know. to See, it
00:52:29.27
Steve Barnes
Well, i mean, that's what happens. It's true.
00:52:31.13
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I mean, it it did seem i was glad that Rose is clearly heartbroken about Tangil's death. Maybe nobody else is, but she is and it's deep enough that she doesn't want to keep up this farm anymore.
00:52:49.14
Lindsey Dunn
I don't think when she said it's harder, I don't think she just meant physically harder that, yeah, that her heart was broken.
00:52:54.49
Steve Barnes
Well, yeah. But I mean, I think Daniel probably did do a lot of the heavy lifting out there, probably.
00:52:59.95
Lindsey Dunn
I'm sure he did.
00:53:00.11
Steve Barnes
You got those big old muscles?
00:53:01.54
Lindsey Dunn
I'm sure he did.
00:53:03.87
Steve Barnes
Come on.
00:53:04.47
Lindsey Dunn
yeah um
00:53:09.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, these these were two good characters, and i'm I'm sorry we will be losing them, but hopefully we'll have some more Shokopiwa people to look forward to in the in the future.
00:53:24.60
Steve Barnes
We shall see. who you got next?
00:53:27.48
Lindsey Dunn
Alright, Hank. Hank Grogan. He didn't do much this episode.
00:53:31.70
Steve Barnes
He didn't do much this season, Lindsey.
00:53:33.14
Lindsey Dunn
yes
00:53:34.39
Steve Barnes
I mean, he's a key character, but he himself didn't do a whole lot.
00:53:37.82
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. He was a victim. He was a victim of the system. He's getting arrested for a crime he didn't commit. And he was an impetus for the black spot incident.
00:53:47.01
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
00:53:51.74
Lindsey Dunn
But I mean, he was there also almost every episode in in some way or another. But this this episode, he mainly was wringing his hands and being like, is that my Ronnie?
00:54:03.22
Lindsey Dunn
Is my Ronnie there?
00:54:03.80
Steve Barnes
yeah He provided some some much needed dialogue when someone needed to say another line.
00:54:07.94
Lindsey Dunn
Oh.
00:54:09.80
Steve Barnes
He was there for them. I was thinking that um if I could be any character in this season, I would want to be Hank. Because first, I'm at the movie theater with my daughter having a great time watching movies.
00:54:24.63
Steve Barnes
And I'm, I mean, just face it, I'm banging Ingrid. Like we don't have a relationship. Like we're just kind of doing our thing. And then, you know, oh my God, I get arrested. That's terrible. But I'm in a cell by myself. I can read books and stuff.
00:54:40.47
Steve Barnes
And then i get, I'm in the black spot and I'm there like in the back room again, hidden by myself. I can read all day or whatever. And then the fire, oh no, but I escaped. I'm fine.
00:54:52.54
Steve Barnes
so And then he gets his daughter back and then they leave and they go to Canada. I mean, perfect life.
00:54:59.49
Lindsey Dunn
He was at the jail by himself, but he also was offered cigarettes by his jailer.
00:55:05.62
Steve Barnes
That's true. I mean, yeah, he got smokes. It's even better.
00:55:10.52
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, it wasn't exactly a hard time there in in the in the prison.
00:55:15.29
Steve Barnes
No, I mean, they didn't show him getting harassed or really bullied a whole lot either. um i mean, he got heckled when he got on the bus. Oh, the bus thing must have been pretty scary.
00:55:23.45
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:55:25.01
Steve Barnes
So I take that back.
00:55:25.46
Lindsey Dunn
yeah he it But he never had to go to Shawshank.
00:55:29.30
Steve Barnes
Right.
00:55:29.88
Lindsey Dunn
Because that would be bad. that The life in Shawshank was not great, especially if your accusation was child murder.
00:55:32.26
Steve Barnes
Well, that would.
00:55:40.89
Steve Barnes
ah He should be thanking Pennywise for commandeering that bus then, because otherwise he'd probably still be in Shawshank to this day. But he, you know, the bus was attacked.
00:55:50.71
Lindsey Dunn
oh
00:55:53.35
Steve Barnes
So he got out of there.
00:55:54.63
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I mean, one thing I will say is Hank Why are you leaving your mama behind?
00:56:03.00
Steve Barnes
She was she came to she was in the car.
00:56:05.65
Lindsey Dunn
I didn't see that. I just saw her handing him boxes. I thought she was just helping him load the car.
00:56:11.29
Steve Barnes
No, they all, they all went together. The whole Grogan family went together.
00:56:14.71
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Okay. Okay.
00:56:16.60
Steve Barnes
And, um, even they, and they had another like little movie, little shout out there. They talked about Natalie Wood and like some, uh, that could be another Easter egg. They talked about the, uh, the magazines that Hank had some movie magazines.
00:56:30.14
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I didn't understand that. She says, i think Natalie Wood should be in the back of the car where Ronnie is. of i didn't understand what that meant.
00:56:40.02
Steve Barnes
So that Ronnie could read those magazines while she's on the road. I think that's because I didn't understand it either.
00:56:43.61
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
00:56:46.02
Steve Barnes
And that's the only thing I could ascertain is they were putting the magazines in the trunk and they were saying that they should have put them in the back seat so Ronnie could read them.
00:56:46.65
Lindsey Dunn
but ah
00:56:55.64
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:56:56.34
Steve Barnes
I guess I'm stretching here. I don't know.
00:56:58.72
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:57:01.30
Lindsey Dunn
All right. Anything more we want to say about Hank?
00:57:04.90
Steve Barnes
Nah, we like them. Have a good one, Hank.
00:57:08.70
Lindsey Dunn
Enjoy your life. did Did they say where they were going?
00:57:11.70
Steve Barnes
Yeah, Canada. they're They're crossing the border.
00:57:14.42
Lindsey Dunn
Canada. Okay. All right. We're going to move on to General Shaw. Francis.
00:57:21.56
Steve Barnes
um Salute. Salute. Here's some taps now. He's gone, buddy. ah i was i was trying to think about this.
00:57:34.58
Steve Barnes
What if the military had never showed up to Derry to do this whole operation? Pennywise would just have, you know, he would have done the movie theater thing for sure. Or he would have killed Matty.
00:57:49.02
Steve Barnes
um he probably would have done the movie theater thing. And that might have been it. You know, he might have killed a couple more kids and then gone to sleep. So I think the military getting involved really um mucked things up a whole lot. We can blame Shaw for that.
00:58:06.63
Lindsey Dunn
I guess we can. I don't know. This is another character I feel sad about. he'd ended up being a really nasty character. And it makes me question, why did you show us this little boy at the circus with his
00:58:25.37
Steve Barnes
I know.
00:58:26.01
Lindsey Dunn
yeah you You sold us on him. you made us think that he could be redeemed. And it was kind of sad to I will say that that lore, though, that they set up,
00:58:38.55
Lindsey Dunn
really made that sadness because when he sees the clown an adult he's clearly excited the same way Ingrid was you know he's like here's the thing from my childhood and yeah it's
00:58:46.33
Steve Barnes
Right. Yes.
00:58:53.97
Steve Barnes
That's right.
00:58:58.71
Steve Barnes
And he, he loves Pennyway. He took his hat off out of respect.
00:59:04.92
Lindsey Dunn
sure did he sure did he took He took his hat off. He gave him he gave him a salute almost.
00:59:12.12
Steve Barnes
Yeah. I mean, the guy who played Shaw, I think did a great job with it. Um, I mean, I guess it's not too terribly hard to play a military guy, but there is some nuance that he threw in here, especially when he faced Pennywise in this episode.
00:59:25.66
Steve Barnes
I thought he ah did a good job of being ah a scared military guy, but,
00:59:25.88
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
00:59:32.25
Steve Barnes
You're right because i was so invested in Rose and Shaw and I was so sure that like, or I still am actually that, that will still happen when when we go back to 1908 in the show.
00:59:37.12
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:59:39.39
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
00:59:45.75
Steve Barnes
Um, probably for the, the, the Easter egg hunt, you know, the kitchen, iron works. Um, we will see Shaw and we will see Rose and If they're smart, they'll play it off like the young kid Shaw has a little bit of shiftiness about him, too. And you're not really too sure if you can trust what he's saying.
01:00:07.48
Steve Barnes
And I think that, you know, that that potentially, you know, has some meat to that. So they could they could play this character that way instead of just playing like a cute little boy that's going to fall in love with Rose. It could give him a lot of foreshadowing.
01:00:21.56
Steve Barnes
But it it is, you know, it it is ah a bit of a waste of potential that we could have seen. You know, we could have seen Shaw like, I'm going to give up the military and come with you, Rose. You know?
01:00:32.89
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, that was that was their ah was there opportunity there to maybe make it work.
01:00:32.95
Steve Barnes
but
01:00:39.97
Lindsey Dunn
But I thought it was interesting that he seems to think he's going to get this jail get get out of jail free card because he's going to let the entity go free.
01:00:51.19
Lindsey Dunn
but yeah he says he says you're free to go you're free as if as if pennywise is controlled at all by the military i think that was a trigger for pennywise like you give me my freedom
01:00:51.73
Steve Barnes
Oh, that was silly. oh my God.
01:01:10.23
Lindsey Dunn
um but
01:01:11.61
Steve Barnes
I hope so. i I mean, I was trying to think of a good, a good parallel. And I guess it'd be like, Lindsey, you're, you're free to go do a podcast with other people. If you want to, you're free to have other guests. Okay. I'm going to grant you that you're welcome.
01:01:26.23
Steve Barnes
ah
01:01:29.24
Lindsey Dunn
um but yeah he they have this kind of moment and then Pennywise says i never forget a smell my old friend my old friend yeah
01:01:40.76
Steve Barnes
And he likes that smell.
01:01:44.15
Steve Barnes
Takes a big old bite.
01:01:47.96
Lindsey Dunn
And rose wasn't there to save the day. That was the question I had. Will Rose be there to save the day again? She wasn't because you killed her nephew.
01:01:56.22
Steve Barnes
Mm-mm.
01:01:56.92
Lindsey Dunn
I've
01:01:58.65
Steve Barnes
I don't think Rose is going to be saving any days. Like, i mean, i don't, I don't have a whole lot.
01:02:03.96
Lindsey Dunn
already
01:02:05.90
Steve Barnes
Well, yeah, we already talked about Rose and I think like the future, the future holds for her.
01:02:08.45
Lindsey Dunn
talked about Rose. Yeah.
01:02:11.34
Steve Barnes
She's, she's going to do some crafts and she's going to watch some TV and the end.
01:02:17.57
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I just, I don't understand the military's plan here, which, I mean, we've already said it's going to be a bad plan, but they showed up on the ice somehow,
01:02:30.52
Steve Barnes
h
01:02:31.90
Lindsey Dunn
and they just decided, we're just going to shoot.
01:02:36.86
Steve Barnes
Yeah. Randomly.
01:02:38.78
Lindsey Dunn
yeah We're just going to shoot people. Yeah.
01:02:42.17
Steve Barnes
They decided like at this moment, let's start shooting people like indiscriminately. But then once we stopped doing this, let's never do that ever again. Kind of didn't make sense. Like these are the exact same people you were shooting at before. So why are you not shooting at them now?
01:02:58.33
Steve Barnes
I don't understand.
01:02:59.16
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess in you could say, you know, Leagra Hanlon, Major Hanlon went AWOL. Tanyol left them in the in the sewers and ran off.
01:03:13.21
Lindsey Dunn
So both of them were kind of on the bad boy list already.
01:03:18.69
Steve Barnes
Oh, that's a good point. Okay. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. Both of them. Okay. Well, even so, even after they shoot, um, Daniel to the neck, Leroy in the leg, they're both down.
01:03:25.72
Lindsey Dunn
hu
01:03:32.25
Steve Barnes
They still continue shooting at the children and at the van, which just leads to the whole thing.
01:03:37.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:03:38.84
Steve Barnes
Like, you know, I think one of the kids says it best. Like I thought they were supposed to be the good guys.
01:03:45.94
Lindsey Dunn
You're wrong, kids. You're wrong.
01:03:47.54
Steve Barnes
Yep.
01:03:49.79
Lindsey Dunn
Alright, well, we can move on to our kids here. We've got Rich, Marge, Lily, Ronnie, and Will.
01:04:00.98
Steve Barnes
got a lot of group hugs this episode, Lindsey. Lots. I saw at least five group hugs.
01:04:08.95
Lindsey Dunn
Not as many as last week, though, I feel like, but maybe.
01:04:13.56
Steve Barnes
Well, they're they're keeping it. They're keeping up the status quo of group hugs, I think. um But yeah, a lot of that. um I want to start with Rich because he got resurrected.
01:04:23.51
Lindsey Dunn
and Okay.
01:04:27.16
Steve Barnes
um he came back to lend a hand with the with the dagger and a finger. Remember, he gave Pennywise the finger, which everybody loves that.
01:04:32.80
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:04:35.78
Steve Barnes
I mean, that that might be like the screenshot of the episode of him of him running past Pennywise and giving him the finger. But this this is an appropriate time time to talk about this.
01:04:49.91
Steve Barnes
Rich is brought back. um i I think it's undisputable that he's brought back by by Dick Halloran. Cause I don't see how else he and the other spirit could have arrived.
01:05:07.77
Steve Barnes
Do you have an explanation as to why rich and this other spirit arrived?
01:05:13.36
Lindsey Dunn
Well,
01:05:16.34
Lindsey Dunn
the so the chief the chief is supposed to go where the shard goes.
01:05:23.45
Steve Barnes
Okay.
01:05:23.48
Lindsey Dunn
the place see They mention
01:05:23.77
Steve Barnes
That, that, that makes sense. Yes.
01:05:27.09
Lindsey Dunn
mention the indigenous people go where they are buried. And I think this tree is the home base of this shard.
01:05:43.74
Lindsey Dunn
and and it was removed from it. So the shard is supposed to well, I might be going to, that it's not right, is it?
01:05:49.51
Steve Barnes
That's not...
01:05:51.49
Lindsey Dunn
Because they said that it wants to go home.
01:05:51.96
Steve Barnes
No. Yeah, the tree is not where it's supposed to be. But I think you're right about... i think you're onto something there. That makes more sense...
01:05:59.29
Lindsey Dunn
But I don't think, yeah, I don't think that Dick summoned the the person, but it's interesting that he asked the the bear chief,
01:06:11.35
Lindsey Dunn
To help him find the kids. And so. Rich is apparently. tagging ah Tagging around. With the bear chief.
01:06:19.45
Steve Barnes
Oh.
01:06:20.66
Lindsey Dunn
Because they were with.
01:06:22.10
Steve Barnes
Okay.
01:06:22.59
Lindsey Dunn
they were with The kids in the fire. And she helped Dick Halloran find them. But I don't think he summoned them. Because he's looking surprised. He notices. Rose notices the chief.
01:06:34.74
Lindsey Dunn
And then Dick Halloran sees the chief. And she notices that he sees too. And he sees Rich there. But it...
01:06:43.09
Steve Barnes
I don't think she sees them because she says, what are you looking at? And he says a motherfucking miracle.
01:06:49.05
Lindsey Dunn
Well, she hears the music. And she turns her head. and then he turns his head. So I think she saw something.
01:07:01.27
Lindsey Dunn
She didn't see Rich, though.
01:07:04.38
Steve Barnes
Okay, well, let's. I mean, I kind of like your explanation of, you know, he asked the bear head to lead him to the children.
01:07:15.35
Steve Barnes
That makes sense that that Rich would be in that situation then.
01:07:16.92
Lindsey Dunn
oh
01:07:20.06
Steve Barnes
It still doesn't really satisfy me 100%. I still think it's kind of... pulled out of Andy's ass here, Andy Muschietti's ass.
01:07:27.58
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:07:28.60
Steve Barnes
But I mean, that makes more sense than anything else I could come up with. And the show didn't give us any sort of explanation whatsoever. So I think that that you deserve credit for that.
01:07:37.42
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:07:40.12
Lindsey Dunn
Well, i I will just say, i didn't, this is one of the things I did not like.
01:07:45.91
Steve Barnes
Okay.
01:07:46.42
Lindsey Dunn
As much as I like Rich, I don't like this whole temporary Rich resurrection plot thread that seems, it seemed very cheap, not in line with the show, not in line with Stephen King's universe.
01:07:48.27
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
01:07:54.26
Steve Barnes
Right. Me neither.
01:07:59.94
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
01:08:05.08
Lindsey Dunn
Name one time he's had a spirit come back from the dead to help his help people. I don't think that's,
01:08:12.28
Steve Barnes
All that happens all the time in Stephen King's book, Mother Abigail. it happens all the time. but I it could have been explained way better and I'm not satisfied with it.
01:08:22.88
Steve Barnes
So I tend to agree with you that it's that it is kind of cheesy.
01:08:26.76
Lindsey Dunn
It just feels like a different genre than what we're looking for here.
01:08:33.43
Steve Barnes
Yeah. I yeah, I'm not I'm not.
01:08:36.98
Lindsey Dunn
ah sort of in a way, it sort of gets goes with what they did because remember that Stan Uris the loser who's dead at the end.
01:08:48.59
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
01:08:50.26
Lindsey Dunn
and they kind of bring him in, even with the adults, because They try to make it seem like, oh, he's not a coward. He's actually really brave.
01:09:03.74
Lindsey Dunn
He knew he would hurt us, so he killed himself as an act of heroism.
01:09:10.84
Lindsey Dunn
Do you remember that? and it it I just don't see that in the books.
01:09:17.86
Lindsey Dunn
it's It's more that Stan is so scared he can't make it. He can't do it.
01:09:24.38
Steve Barnes
Yeah, that's right.
01:09:24.50
Lindsey Dunn
And that's... That's a horrific thing, and it's it's cool, and it's a good story time it's a good story device.
01:09:33.37
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:09:33.88
Lindsey Dunn
And this whole, oh, he was actually a hero, it seems like it's trying to do something really sentimental.
01:09:42.68
Steve Barnes
They call reverse engineering or not reverse engineering, but like, yeah, it's like they're trying to.
01:09:42.84
Lindsey Dunn
And yeah.
01:09:48.50
Steve Barnes
there's a phrase for this and I can't think of what it is. Um, when you try to go back and make some, make something what it's not.
01:09:51.13
Lindsey Dunn
yeah
01:09:55.05
Steve Barnes
Um, yeah, I agree with that. And most things that happen in this episode that I don't like, I can, um, I can see where the, where're where it makes sense within the story, but this still doesn't really make a whole lot of sense because
01:09:57.39
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:10:12.34
Steve Barnes
Dick seeing, Rich kind of makes sense, but then him seeing Rich at the funeral does not because he was supposed to have the lid on that box and he's supposed to not being able to see any more dead people at all.
01:10:28.67
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:10:29.85
Steve Barnes
So it, I'm on one hand, I'm glad Rich is back because it's fun to have a character return, especially as flamboyantly as he returned this episode.
01:10:42.23
Steve Barnes
But um I'm just kind of not buying it. It just doesn't pass the test. And I think your explanation makes more sense than anything else.
01:10:48.06
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:10:50.38
Steve Barnes
And even your explanation doesn't quite, quite cover it.
01:10:56.85
Steve Barnes
And, um, since we're still talking about rich, you know, we see his funeral,
01:10:57.11
Lindsey Dunn
yeah
01:11:01.82
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:11:02.58
Steve Barnes
And I'm thinking about Rich's parents during this funeral. First off, this strange girl stands up and who barely knows Rich and makes this really nice speech. And they're probably wondering like, who is this girl and where are her parents? We haven't seen her parents this entire season.
01:11:18.90
Steve Barnes
And then their interaction with Dick Halloran afterwards as well. And I'm just thinking of myself, if I was at my child's funeral and then some stranger came up to me and was like, Oh, they're standing right behind you. Yep. There they got their hand on your shoulder.
01:11:34.80
Steve Barnes
They're going to follow you forever. I'd be like, okay, crazy person. I'm in the middle of morning here. ahs i don't need you to convince me of this. And they, they just accepted it so willingly and so wholesomely that ah it kind of, ah again, didn't pass the smell test with me.
01:11:56.50
Lindsey Dunn
I did like the funeral. i I thought it was sweet. um Whether or not... I didn't think about whether the parents how the parents would have felt at the funeral. But I did like the part that he was there. And i didn't that didn't bother me for some reason.
01:12:13.46
Lindsey Dunn
But yeah, Rich showing like showing up to help with the... Bury the thing. Which seemed... That whole thing seemed really odd to me too. like That it would be this hard...
01:12:24.84
Lindsey Dunn
if you I know they wanted a conflict, they wanted a challenge that, yes, it's not going to be easy for you to defeat the entity to put this shard in its resting place, but there could have been something other than for about 15 minutes, kids holding a shard and trying to put it in the ground.
01:12:28.71
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:12:50.62
Steve Barnes
yeah
01:12:51.74
Lindsey Dunn
That the whole thing was just very silly. And having magnetic radioactive waves coming off of it.
01:12:59.16
Steve Barnes
And where the shard ended it up, it was in plain view of anybody who's like fishing at the lake. You know what I mean? It's just there by the tree roots.
01:13:08.43
Lindsey Dunn
it's not even normally this foggy. They're just going to have a big triangle sticking out of the ground.
01:13:15.22
Steve Barnes
I guess, but...
01:13:16.52
Lindsey Dunn
Somebody's going to have to take Tanyl's spot to watch you know watch with the goggles now, the binoculars.
01:13:23.31
Steve Barnes
Well, had his buddy, the cousin. So I guess his cousin is going to have to step up and grow his hair out and ah start being the peeper.
01:13:25.91
Lindsey Dunn
Right. Okay.
01:13:30.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was sweet. I think the reason why I liked the rich beat at the end with his parents is because of Dick Halloran and it sort of ties in with his arc, which we'll talk about later. We're going to talk about Dick Halloran later, but um he's had some big growth in this, in this series.
01:13:55.70
Lindsey Dunn
Should we move on to Marge?
01:13:58.23
Steve Barnes
Yeah, oh absolutely. she She cussed a lot this episode. She said a lot of bad words.
01:14:04.57
Lindsey Dunn
She said a lot of bad words. I only really remember the one. But, yeah. Okay.
01:14:08.76
Steve Barnes
Oh, she was saying shit and fuck all over the place. Like at least five times. Like her actress, I bet whoever plays her was probably like so ecstatic to say all these bad words and to be part of this.
01:14:20.76
Steve Barnes
um But yes, she I like her thing because you you know I have to like this. When Ronnie was like giving her crap because she only has one eye and she's like, I can drive with one eye.
01:14:31.33
Steve Barnes
Yes, I'm living proof of this.
01:14:31.64
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:14:33.64
Steve Barnes
Yes, you can drive with one eye. It's totally fine. ah so I'm totally on Marge's side.
01:14:37.89
Lindsey Dunn
was difficult though. um Yeah. but I think out of all of the kids, Marge has the best, you know, performance out of everybody in this episode.
01:14:52.25
Steve Barnes
Oh, hands down, yeah.
01:14:53.21
Lindsey Dunn
um She's delightfully rebellious at this point. But um the dialogue for all of these kids is so bad this episode that it feels... It just feels like nobody gave it a second edit.
01:15:12.73
Lindsey Dunn
Because I was thinking, how many times do you have to say the word guys? they would They kept doing...
01:15:19.99
Steve Barnes
I don't even know if they yeah, i don't even know if they said guys back in, back in 1962, if girls called themselves guys.
01:15:21.80
Lindsey Dunn
They kept...
01:15:26.45
Steve Barnes
i don't think they did.
01:15:26.62
Lindsey Dunn
you There was... the the the three girls, when the three girls are, you know, scheming, one of them goes, guys, and then another one says, guys?
01:15:39.74
Lindsey Dunn
They just kept saying it, yeah, and that did make me feel like it was a young show, and even the way at the end when Marge and Lily are are talking about explaining the time travel, and she says, he told me something, well, what if
01:15:39.81
Steve Barnes
Guys over here, look over here.
01:15:46.33
Steve Barnes
yeah
01:15:53.88
Steve Barnes
Mm hmm.
01:15:58.17
Lindsey Dunn
de
01:15:58.68
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:15:58.81
Lindsey Dunn
comes back to do our parents it's just it's felt so paid by numbers it was was really bad and i feel like these kids deserve better and i've seen them perform better so this i know they put the emphasis for this episode on special effects but why why did you have to make the script like this for this especially for these kids at the end it was i almost don't have besides
01:16:04.41
Steve Barnes
Very much so. Yep.
01:16:25.40
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, besides Marge, I almost don't have much to say about any of these kids this episode because it's all just action and moving from point A to point B.
01:16:36.60
Steve Barnes
Well, Marge does have some cool action. She gets yoinked by Pennywise, which that's a neat little effect. thought that was a fun one when there he does a little fake like cartoon arm and yoinks her and actually makes a little yoink noise.
01:16:51.66
Steve Barnes
I like that.
01:16:51.64
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I said besides Marge. I said besides Marge.
01:16:55.26
Steve Barnes
Oh, I know you did.
01:16:55.48
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:16:55.90
Steve Barnes
I know you did. But I'm saying that's like my one of my notes about Marge is that like she gets that thing going on.
01:16:57.18
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:17:01.91
Steve Barnes
And my biggest note about Marge, too, is like, I think that's how you opened the episode.
01:17:01.90
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:17:06.58
Steve Barnes
You were talking about how I'm Mr. I told you so. And the way that they gave us the confirmation that she is Richie Tozier's mom.
01:17:16.73
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:17:17.85
Steve Barnes
was once again very on the screen, paint by numbers, let me pull out a diagram and show you exactly what I mean kind of thing.
01:17:27.54
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:17:27.74
Steve Barnes
um It wasn't a really fun reveal. It was a, I don't know, I guess so i guess it was a really clinical reveal, I suppose.
01:17:36.15
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Well, it it made it crystal clear for people for ah for the people on Facebook that keep saying, oh, she's this person's parent, this person's parent, you know.
01:17:41.56
Steve Barnes
I mean, there's no doubt in anyone's minds.
01:17:51.16
Lindsey Dunn
Well, they've confirmed it. They said the last name and everything and even had a picture of Finn Wolf
01:17:56.28
Steve Barnes
I mean, couldn't make it any more clear than they did. i mean, is they should have just shown her like as an adult giving birth and then like, I don't know.
01:18:08.44
Steve Barnes
um
01:18:08.73
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
01:18:09.40
Steve Barnes
We talked about Rich's funeral. There were probably a lot of funerals in Derry this week, right? Like after the black spot.
01:18:15.52
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Well, I was confused that the funeral was here at the end because rich was... And maybe I'm just forgetting how everything timed out, but I would have thought they already had the funeral because just felt like, well, wait a second. How much, how long has it been since the black spot incident?
01:18:39.52
Lindsey Dunn
Cause I thought the funeral had already happened.
01:18:40.02
Steve Barnes
I think it was yesterday. i think i think the black spot was yesterday in the story.
01:18:42.02
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
01:18:44.76
Steve Barnes
And then the next day, this fog rolls in.
01:18:45.27
Lindsey Dunn
who
01:18:48.60
Lindsey Dunn
Right. And Marge is obviously in charge of the entire funeral. Right. She's the main speaker. There's no there's no pastor. It's just March.
01:18:58.93
Steve Barnes
And she has his drumsticks and she's the one who lays his drumsticks on his casket too. So like, yeah, she's the funeral director.
01:19:03.60
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. But I did like her speech. I thought it was sweet. She talks about the friends who make a home in your heart.
01:19:14.90
Lindsey Dunn
I thought that was a nice line.
01:19:18.23
Steve Barnes
um the I like the line better where she said that there's no good friends or bad friends. There's just friends. And that one stuck with me more. I like that line.
01:19:28.38
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, but well, I think there was there was something about the idea that I've only known him a month, but that doesn't matter.
01:19:34.37
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:19:37.62
Lindsey Dunn
it's not It's not the length of time, it's the quality. she doesn't say that, but I did... I thought it was nice because it kind of gives me this feeling that He's going to be in her heart permanently, which explains why she would name a son after after him.
01:20:02.82
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:20:03.35
Lindsey Dunn
But then also, it almost makes her like a Mary figure because it's like Pennywise is the Archangel Gabriel telling her you're going to have a son named Richie.
01:20:17.11
Lindsey Dunn
so
01:20:18.58
Steve Barnes
Okay, all right, I can see this.
01:20:18.90
Lindsey Dunn
you would you would think You would think she might want to be defiant and say, I'm not going to name him Richie.
01:20:24.98
Steve Barnes
Exactly.
01:20:25.02
Lindsey Dunn
I'm not going name him something else to foil your pan.
01:20:28.73
Steve Barnes
Yeah, going to steer clear of anyone named Tozier the rest of my life.
01:20:29.84
Lindsey Dunn
Exactly.
01:20:32.13
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:20:35.03
Lindsey Dunn
Well, it's probably one of those fake relationship things where you don't know the who the actual the person hid their identity and she lives her whole life going, I'm not going to date anyone with last name of Tozer.
01:20:43.95
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
01:20:48.36
Lindsey Dunn
But he's been hiding the last name for whatever reason.
01:20:52.44
Steve Barnes
um My name's not Dozier. It's Tozier. Oh, no.
01:20:58.93
Lindsey Dunn
um But yeah, I thought i thought Marge was gay gave real rebel rebel girl energy here at the end. so
01:21:09.07
Steve Barnes
Oh, we got plane closure. Finally.
01:21:12.25
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, we had we had a plane. it it didn't happen like the way that could have I could have stood to that to be a little more on the nose.
01:21:24.41
Steve Barnes
But it made it to Main Street.
01:21:24.41
Lindsey Dunn
but Yeah. we
01:21:25.65
Steve Barnes
You know, we got we got we at least got a little closure out of it We got a smile.
01:21:32.35
Lindsey Dunn
All right. Anything we want to say about Lily? Lily, she finally lets go of the dagger.
01:21:40.89
Steve Barnes
but Well, she's forced to. It's like the whole magic phrase of like the lifeboat that breaks the spell. ah
01:21:49.91
Lindsey Dunn
right Yeah, so it it is good.
01:21:51.75
Steve Barnes
Twas friendship that thawed the monster's heart. ah
01:22:02.17
Lindsey Dunn
She kind of figures that out. But yeah, I mean, i was getting tired of the other thing about the die dagger because it falls on the ground and i think it's Marge or Ronnie's going to pick it up and she's like, don't touch it.
01:22:16.47
Steve Barnes
Well, i mean, we, we get story out of it. We, we learn why, because it's getting further and further away from where it's supposed to be. So it's getting mad and stuff. So they kind of explained a little bit, I guess.
01:22:28.97
Steve Barnes
I'm happy that she didn't end up in Juniper Hill getting a lobotomy, which is, which was everybody's guess for that's where everybody thought that's where Lily was going to end up.
01:22:39.61
Steve Barnes
Or they thought Lily was going to be Beverly's mom.
01:22:42.30
Lindsey Dunn
Beverly's mom, yeah.
01:22:43.90
Steve Barnes
Neither one. She's just going to grow up and be a nice Lily Bainbridge. And that's that. I don't know if she's going to stay in Derry or not because we don't have any Bainbridge children in the 80s or 90s or whatever it is.
01:22:58.68
Steve Barnes
um But, you know, we know she lives and she doesn't end up in Juniper Hill. And that's good enough for me.
01:23:04.95
Lindsey Dunn
Well, a speculation that I'm wondering is if we're going to see in the next cycle, the 1935, which would be the previous cycle, the 1935, if we're going to see either her mom or her dad or both.
01:23:21.30
Lindsey Dunn
Because, yeah.
01:23:22.46
Steve Barnes
Yeah, we will.
01:23:24.41
Lindsey Dunn
I mean, it might be one or the other, but we've met Mrs.
01:23:24.73
Steve Barnes
ah
01:23:28.94
Lindsey Dunn
Bainbridge. We've only met Mr. Bainbridge through his pickle.
01:23:35.35
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:23:35.39
Lindsey Dunn
this pickle self. um But.
01:23:39.64
Steve Barnes
But I mean, Pennywise and Marge pretty much confirmed that that that he's going to go back in time and try to like off their parents to stop this whole cycle from happening.
01:23:49.34
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:23:51.26
Steve Barnes
So
01:23:51.51
Lindsey Dunn
Well, the the line is, what if it comes after our parents? So it it seems like pretty on the nose that.
01:23:59.86
Steve Barnes
yes, absolutely.
01:24:01.65
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:24:03.74
Steve Barnes
And, um, I liked when all three of the girls were, uh, before they got into the milk truck, they tried to triple up on that bike.
01:24:13.82
Lindsey Dunn
did that make you think of the Did that make you think of Dark with and Martha, but it wasn't as smooth?
01:24:14.01
Steve Barnes
That was great.
01:24:22.30
Steve Barnes
Well, no, it made me think of me being a kid and me doing the exact same thing with my friends. How many people can, can we get on this bike and how far can we go with like five guys on one bike?
01:24:33.72
Steve Barnes
It's fun. i mean, it's, ah it was neat and I'm glad that I'm, I'm glad they were realistic enough to like not let that happen. That was one thing that was realistic in this show was that. Three girls on a bike is not going to work.
01:24:46.17
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, but is it realistic that that Marge could be able to drive a stick shift but just by watching?
01:24:56.92
Steve Barnes
a a little A little doubtful there. There's other things that I think are more doubtful. That one's a little doubtful. Yes. When they were following that trail of blood, they were like walking directly in the blood, which I thought was not smart.
01:25:12.41
Lindsey Dunn
Well, you brought up the dagger. I wanted to ask you something.
01:25:15.45
Steve Barnes
Okay.
01:25:17.18
Lindsey Dunn
So you're saying, we're saying that this spot that they put the dagger is not the original spot. So where was the original spot for this shard?
01:25:25.73
Steve Barnes
Right.
01:25:30.33
Steve Barnes
Just on the north side of the just to the north on the north side of the river. Like when she shows the map, she shows the spot where the tree is and then directly across the river is from where the da the original original dagger was taken.
01:25:48.28
Steve Barnes
Not the original dagger, where the a pillar was taken.
01:25:51.67
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. ah I think that's a little confusing to me because I would think there would be one pillar in each spot.
01:26:01.18
Steve Barnes
Yes.
01:26:01.24
Lindsey Dunn
But she showed it as a circle.
01:26:03.45
Steve Barnes
h
01:26:04.18
Lindsey Dunn
So this piece of shard was in the sewer. How did it get there?
01:26:15.51
Steve Barnes
This piece of shard was in the sewer. They du they dug it out of the ground.
01:26:17.53
Lindsey Dunn
ah one that The one that they're the one that they're that Lily has been holding. She found it in the sewer. Remember?
01:26:24.76
Steve Barnes
After Taniel dropped it. Yeah.
01:26:27.64
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. But that it was in Rose's safe. So why did they take it out of
01:26:30.87
Steve Barnes
Yes, that's right.
01:26:34.84
Steve Barnes
Oh, because the the pillar is gone now. They destroyed the pillar that was in the ground. The military dug up the pillar. So it's gone. So they said, Rose is like, well, we can use the dagger as a pillar.
01:26:49.40
Steve Barnes
The dagger will replace the pillar that the military destroyed.
01:26:53.30
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Okay.
01:26:54.17
Steve Barnes
they They technically should have put it back in the exact spot that that was, but they had to put it back at the tree because that's where Pennywise was heading.
01:27:03.67
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Because I wouldn't think it would be in a circle. I would think it would be in like a star shape. But okay.
01:27:11.60
Steve Barnes
Nope, big old circle. Circle gets a square.
01:27:15.83
Lindsey Dunn
um And I think i think it's Marge. Marge and Ronnie both they kind of help Lily to Wake up from her from her stupor here.
01:27:26.30
Steve Barnes
Yeah, two-handed effort.
01:27:26.94
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Yeah. I don't have too much to say about Ronnie, but I did notice that then she had her two lollipops again.
01:27:36.15
Steve Barnes
Yes, I noticed that too. And she should have been doing that the whole show, in my opinion, but she only did it during her first episode and then her last episode.
01:27:38.10
Lindsey Dunn
and
01:27:45.05
Steve Barnes
But it was enough to make me happy.
01:27:45.66
Lindsey Dunn
hard It's hard to talk with lollipops in your mouth, Steve.
01:27:49.46
Steve Barnes
ah Yeah, that one ah that one patty cake can attest to that.
01:27:55.90
Steve Barnes
But what did what did I have to say about Ronnie? she um She said the lifeboat phrase, which lifted the spell, so that was nice. um Oh, yeah. She's going to leave Derry.
01:28:09.25
Steve Barnes
In the book It, I told you that Veronica um veronica Grogan dies in the book It.
01:28:15.35
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
01:28:16.38
Steve Barnes
But in our story here, she doesn't die. She's heading to Canada with her dad. And um Will's going to write her. to hopefully keep her, you know, remembering stuff about Derry.
01:28:30.20
Steve Barnes
So maybe, you know, maybe they'll maintain their relationship and we'll see more of, I don't know if we'll see more of that later because they're going backwards in time now, but maybe in the future they'll keep up and they'll eventually sire a young Mike who knows.
01:28:46.30
Lindsey Dunn
They could, but we won't we won't ever see that because, you know, in the next time period, we've already seen the next time period, and by then, Hanlon is dead.
01:29:01.85
Steve Barnes
Yep.
01:29:03.86
Lindsey Dunn
so Yeah, i don't I don't know if we're to get any more of this particular Hamlin.
01:29:13.92
Steve Barnes
Nah.
01:29:14.85
Lindsey Dunn
Nah.
01:29:17.69
Lindsey Dunn
um Yeah, and I mean, Will, again, he doesn't really get a lot to do this episode either because he's deadlighted for half of it
01:29:24.94
Steve Barnes
That's right. But he's like the line leader though. He's like the first kid in line of that whole little parade.
01:29:31.06
Lindsey Dunn
But he was... yeah he... was gonna go golem himself when he got a hold of that shard. He was ready to go off.
01:29:40.37
Steve Barnes
That's right.
01:29:41.56
Lindsey Dunn
And then took all four of them. to He's like, turn me around.
01:29:47.96
Steve Barnes
Yeah, that's right.
01:29:48.06
Lindsey Dunn
That Yeah.
01:29:48.96
Steve Barnes
he, it like, it got to him really quick. And um I guess the other thing I could think of is that because he was like the furthest point away and the dagger knew that it was about to be buried somewhere different. So it was mad.
01:30:00.50
Steve Barnes
And so it got extreme on will, I suppose.
01:30:00.56
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:30:04.19
Lindsey Dunn
Well, he's also probably pretty weak too, from his ordeal of being hypnotized and brought all that way and it's cold and they were out there with,
01:30:08.95
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:30:15.45
Steve Barnes
Dad, I'm scared. I'm scared, Dad. ah
01:30:19.54
Lindsey Dunn
they were out there with not appropriate clothes for how cold it was.
01:30:23.35
Steve Barnes
None of them. That's right. And it was only Dick Halloran that was talking about how cold it was. Nobody else was except for him.
01:30:31.00
Lindsey Dunn
yeah Yeah, I mean, i've already said this, but I think it was silly that it was that hard to to bury that shard. They could have put another challenge in there besides, I don't know, force?
01:30:46.94
Lindsey Dunn
Invisible force?
01:30:47.26
Steve Barnes
Yeah. I'm not going to disagree with you.
01:30:49.34
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:30:50.54
Steve Barnes
I mean, it's it's just supposed to be, it's just supposed to show us the power of this dagger.
01:30:50.90
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:30:54.98
Steve Barnes
And you know that if ah if it was Tanyol and Leroy, they'd have no problem with that sucker, I bet.
01:30:55.66
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:31:02.46
Lindsey Dunn
Well, okay. So anything else want to say about our kids before we...
01:31:07.19
Steve Barnes
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. They got the guests from smooching happened in this episode. Like Ronnie did the thing where Will was in the middle of a sentence and then she just like attacked, kissed him like this, like interrupting surprise kiss.
01:31:24.78
Steve Barnes
That's not, that's not really a good way to kiss people. Is it Lindsey?
01:31:29.43
Lindsey Dunn
Sometimes when they're distracted, that way They can't stop you.
01:31:34.05
Steve Barnes
Mid-sentence.
01:31:36.86
Lindsey Dunn
like there was no There was no time to to think about should we do this or not. And i thought it i thought I was going to hear Charlotte going, oh, you think you groan now.
01:31:50.34
Lindsey Dunn
That's what she said last time when they were to get a kiss on the street. And she's like, Will Hamlin.
01:31:54.65
Steve Barnes
Oh yeah.
01:31:57.14
Lindsey Dunn
And then at end of the garden, she's like, you think you groan now? Mm-hmm.
01:32:01.30
Steve Barnes
who
01:32:04.86
Lindsey Dunn
But yes, there was there was smooching at the at the end.
01:32:11.25
Steve Barnes
Yep. And we'll didn't have to do anything at all. Like Ronnie did all the work for him. So once again, you know,
01:32:18.01
Lindsey Dunn
I feel like that's usually how it happens.
01:32:23.19
Lindsey Dunn
They say the girl decides. That's what they say.
01:32:27.90
Steve Barnes
I mean, that makes sense to me. It makes sense to Ronnie and Will also. Because Will was not going to make any sort of move whatsoever. He was just going to ask her if she, you know, you wanted to read a science book or something.
01:32:39.64
Lindsey Dunn
Do you want to write letters? but I forget what the conversation was even about that they were having.
01:32:44.89
Steve Barnes
Oh, the stink bomb. They were talking about the stink bomb and having a laugh.
01:32:47.48
Lindsey Dunn
oh yeah. Yeah,
01:32:52.44
Lindsey Dunn
I forgot about that. I forgot about that stink bomb. Detention.
01:32:56.30
Steve Barnes
that's how they That's how they became friends. They're reminiscent about their first day together.
01:33:00.44
Lindsey Dunn
Detention.
01:33:01.94
Steve Barnes
Yep.
01:33:05.18
Lindsey Dunn
Okay, well we were talking about Charlotte We can move on to Charlotte Charlotte and Leroy here together
01:33:10.36
Steve Barnes
Yeah,
01:33:13.08
Steve Barnes
I think that Charlotte gave the most convincing performance of the season, perhaps when she started freaking out on Leroy, when he came in the house and she finds out Will's gone. I was really convinced by that performance, actually.
01:33:28.70
Lindsey Dunn
You In convinced in what way
01:33:32.25
Steve Barnes
That she was really pissed and that she was angry and that she was, you know she convinced me like ah it
01:33:41.34
Steve Barnes
Compared to some of the other reactions that we see in this episode, i think that this is like the most convincing performance.
01:33:48.41
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah Well she she was pretty upset That Leroy Didn't do his job
01:33:57.91
Lindsey Dunn
He was supposed to make sure That Will stayed at home
01:33:58.10
Steve Barnes
Yeah, I mean,
01:34:02.54
Steve Barnes
that's right. And.
01:34:06.39
Steve Barnes
Yeah, he had a pretty pretty floppy excuse there because he was like, it's sleeping. It's all good now. But yeah, he should have done it a little bit better than that. Or at least should have been like making sure Will was with somebody all the time as well. That would have been helpful.
01:34:24.86
Lindsey Dunn
But every, the adults, adults all go on the rescue mission to find the kids. And and in some ways, i I question this. It's nice to see adults on the one, yeah.
01:34:37.78
Lindsey Dunn
On the one hand, it's nice to see adults involved in these shows. that deal with horror because a lot of times a big part of horror invite involving teenagers or youth is that the parents are never around they're leaving the kids vulnerable and so it's nice to have that but it's also a little strange that we have adults in this Stephen King universe to the extent that that we do what we have in this season but everybody's involved here we have
01:34:52.82
Steve Barnes
Right.
01:35:13.52
Lindsey Dunn
Hank Grogan, we've got, you know, Rose and Tanya, we got Dick Halloran, we got the Tanlins, and they're all they're all in a van. And... but But for what it was, i liked especially... i mean, Charlotte was out there on the ice holding the gun, too.
01:35:33.75
Lindsey Dunn
But Leroy really, again, laid it down here. He put his neck on the line. For his kids. And he has that nice. I think he had a really nice speech. With his son. Where he tells him You don't have to be like me.
01:35:50.49
Lindsey Dunn
I want. you know You should be yourself. And I love you.
01:35:53.75
Steve Barnes
Right.
01:35:54.56
Lindsey Dunn
Just the way you are. And that was a good moment. For Will. Because I feel like. He thinks he's been a disappointment to his dad. Because he's into science.
01:36:04.15
Steve Barnes
Yeah. Yeah.
01:36:06.93
Lindsey Dunn
Instead of sports. He's into his brain. Instead of physical prowess. And Leroy affirms his choice to to to do that.
01:36:19.16
Steve Barnes
Yeah. Leroy is supposed to be the man without fear too. And I saw like a lot of fear in him this episode. It seemed like he was scared a lot and there was a lot of emotion coming off of him.
01:36:30.26
Steve Barnes
And I'm not sure if we ever really got the real payoff of like the man without fear, like he was played up to be the missing, um, part of his brain that processes fear.
01:36:44.22
Steve Barnes
Um, Yes, i was I was disappointed in that respect with Leroy. i was hoping that would come into play a little bit more. um I do think that like his relationship with Charlotte and Will has been a little topsy-turvy.
01:37:01.34
Steve Barnes
And like I agree with you about the moment that he had with Will and the sincerity of it. And then he's had other moments with Will that are just as sincere and just as nice.
01:37:17.02
Steve Barnes
And then he has these other moments where he's just not himself at all. Um, he's very much a, um, when you, when I hear somebody say a man without fear, I'm thinking somebody with, with cold emotions and that can handle anything. And I don't see that in this guy.
01:37:36.34
Steve Barnes
um I'm seeing an emotional guy. um seeing a loving guy. I'm seeing an angry guy sometimes. And I think that fear ties in with all of those.
01:37:47.61
Steve Barnes
Um, so yeah, he is a couple of times that he does, um usurp authority, especially in this episode, he leads this little overthrow here.
01:38:01.37
Steve Barnes
He ends up with an honorable discharge though, not a dishonorable discharge, but an honorable discharge.
01:38:09.01
Lindsey Dunn
Right. And I wonder who was doing the discharging. Was it Fuller?
01:38:13.05
Steve Barnes
Right.
01:38:13.57
Lindsey Dunn
Because, yeah, because Shaw is no longer in the picture.
01:38:14.10
Steve Barnes
Good question. Yeah.
01:38:18.94
Lindsey Dunn
So that kind of leaves Fuller as the only witness still left.
01:38:24.34
Steve Barnes
That's right. ah Yeah, he's still out there. Nothing happened to him. He was definitely um a survivor. And I was wondering, they explained to us what happened with Leroy with his honorable discharge, but they don't explain to us um about Dick Halloran.
01:38:41.27
Steve Barnes
They just basically say, yeah I got a job at a hotel, whoho but they don't say like, you know, how we got out of the military or whether it was honorable, dishonorable, whether he quit, whether he was kicked out.
01:38:54.01
Steve Barnes
um
01:38:54.19
Lindsey Dunn
Didn't he say something about I have to keep quiet?
01:39:01.27
Lindsey Dunn
Didn't Dick Hotton say something about that? Yeah.
01:39:05.14
Steve Barnes
Not that I recall.
01:39:05.46
Lindsey Dunn
yeah I mean, they gotta get rid of both of these guys. They can because they know too much at this point.
01:39:09.46
Steve Barnes
ah
01:39:12.76
Lindsey Dunn
Gotta cut them loose.
01:39:13.21
Steve Barnes
Oh, they be in the military, not they, the show writers. Let's admit like the show writers. We got to write them off here real quick here.
01:39:19.45
Lindsey Dunn
No, no, no. I mean, the military's these These two guys, they know too much and they've seen they've seen too much.
01:39:26.46
Steve Barnes
He must have an honorable discharge too, because i remember Shaw was telling Fuller, because if Fuller is like in charge now, the last thing he heard from Shaw was like, we don't care about Hanlon, but Dick Halloran, you know, that guy is important.
01:39:28.54
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:39:40.28
Steve Barnes
So i can I can only assume that he got honorable as well.
01:39:40.95
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:39:45.21
Lindsey Dunn
Going back to your statements about the man without fear...
01:39:49.88
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:39:50.30
Lindsey Dunn
I feel like it's been established, though, that his lack of fear is more of an instinct thing about his personal safety, that when it comes to his personal safety and taking risks, he's able to do that without fear.
01:40:09.62
Lindsey Dunn
But, i mean, I'm not a brain a brain doctor, um but I wonder if if I looked
01:40:10.65
Steve Barnes
Hmm.
01:40:17.88
Lindsey Dunn
if I had time to do Google research, I would find that there are different parts of the brain that are used when it comes to your personal safety versus your empathy gene for caring about somebody who's in your care.
01:40:36.47
Lindsey Dunn
um Because he was able to think pretty quickly when he, when he was facing the gun down at in his room.
01:40:47.35
Lindsey Dunn
You know, that's when he didn't feel fear. And also when he's with Dick Halloran flying over where the shards are or the pillars are and Dick Halloran's about to jump off the plane, he like goes to get him.
01:41:06.10
Steve Barnes
Okay. Yeah,
01:41:06.90
Lindsey Dunn
But it's it' is when it's impacting Will that he cares. So maybe maybe that's a different section of the brain that wasn't damaged.
01:41:20.20
Steve Barnes
I can appreciate your response, but I i just think that that he didn't do enough as a character to really um warrant that whole plot point.
01:41:32.50
Steve Barnes
plot point It was kind of unnecessary. They could have just said, Hey, this guy, Leroy Hanlon, he's pretty tough and left and left it at that.
01:41:40.92
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
01:41:43.00
Steve Barnes
They didn't have to like do this whole brain injury thing.
01:41:43.83
Lindsey Dunn
right
01:41:47.26
Lindsey Dunn
Um, yeah, they didn't, maybe they didn't follow through with it as well as they could. But we didn't talk about the moment yet where he goes into Dick Halloran's room. thought that was a good scene too.
01:41:57.85
Steve Barnes
That was on my mind next. Yes.
01:41:59.54
Lindsey Dunn
Yes. So what do you want to say about it?
01:42:03.06
Steve Barnes
Um,
01:42:07.16
Steve Barnes
actually what I want to say pertains more to Dick than Leroy.
01:42:10.71
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:42:10.94
Steve Barnes
Um, Leroy did the right thing there. Of course he saved Dick's life. He say the, the way he saved Dick's life though was by reminding him about will and about, um, you know, will safety.
01:42:25.46
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:42:29.98
Steve Barnes
And that's when Dick Halloran decides not to kill himself. So, you know, Leroy is the messenger of that. So he deserves all the credit for that. But I think that if he had failed to mention Will's name, then he might've witnessed, you know, Dick killing himself in front of him. And I think that he was wise to bring up Will because it shows the selflessness of this individual.
01:42:56.82
Lindsey Dunn
Right. And he also that took an instinct like he knew what he needed to say. But he was Dick Halloran actually pointed again, pointed the weapon at him a couple of which goes back to man without fear.
01:43:11.00
Steve Barnes
That's right.
01:43:14.55
Lindsey Dunn
So there there is something there they could have.
01:43:16.06
Steve Barnes
Oh, yeah. Okay.
01:43:17.75
Lindsey Dunn
and They could have they could have followed it through maybe better than they they did.
01:43:18.84
Steve Barnes
Okay.
01:43:23.99
Lindsey Dunn
But I think not everybody would be willing to go into a room that like that. um
01:43:30.97
Steve Barnes
Sure.
01:43:31.26
Lindsey Dunn
The other, so he tells, yeah, he mentions Will's name, but he also says, I'll pull the trigger if you want after. He's kind of saying, help me and then I can help you.
01:43:44.95
Lindsey Dunn
I'll do anything in my power to help you. So if you want to die afterwards, I'll be happy to oblige.
01:43:51.86
Steve Barnes
I forgot about that part. That's pretty wild. Hopefully he was lying when he said that.
01:43:58.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I mean, like a good hostage negotiator, he's like, what does this guy want?
01:44:01.89
Steve Barnes
Right. There you go.
01:44:03.86
Lindsey Dunn
You know, what can I what can i grant him? But yeah, he he brought up Will, and that was that was his opportunity to stop. But it was he was quick on his feet, and he thought of something, and he also went in there without fear for his own safety, because cause Dick Calleran could have shot him.
01:44:21.78
Steve Barnes
I guess that's true. Okay.
01:44:25.43
Steve Barnes
Yeah, absolutely.
01:44:29.72
Lindsey Dunn
But I also just think his, you know, the way he interacted on the ice was good too because he sort of puts himself on the line. Like he tells his son, it's up to you. i want you to take this and go to bury it.
01:44:51.83
Lindsey Dunn
So he that's a moment of growth for him because he's been so much like, no, you stay here, you stay here, and don't don't put yourself...
01:45:01.34
Steve Barnes
Oh, okay.
01:45:03.00
Lindsey Dunn
So he had to sort of... He knew that he was shot, and also the military were going to come after him, but they might, even though they were the kids were holding a glow-in-the-dark dagger, for some reason they didn't see that.
01:45:04.73
Steve Barnes
Sure.
01:45:15.45
Steve Barnes
Yep.
01:45:19.51
Steve Barnes
Good point.
01:45:20.89
Lindsey Dunn
But yeah, he allows his son to kind of do that part where he is... standing back and he's he's been shot. Daniel's been shot.
01:45:34.65
Lindsey Dunn
So he kind of knows the kids maybe have a better chance. And then he's sitting there also trying to shoot Pennywise and seeing that this creature regenerate over and over again.
01:45:40.06
Steve Barnes
Right.
01:45:51.45
Steve Barnes
He doesn't try. He succeeds. Yeah.
01:45:52.98
Lindsey Dunn
Well, he he shoots, but but it's he's not six he doesn't succeed in that it takes the creature down. He keeps regrowing body parts.
01:46:00.28
Steve Barnes
No, but he definitely helped. if it was If it wasn't for him shooting him, then Pennywise would have made it to the kids before they got the dagger in there.
01:46:08.12
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:46:10.17
Steve Barnes
So he, you know, he's a good shot too, gotta say.
01:46:13.43
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. He's a good shot and he stays, that's him staying cool under pressure. Yeah.
01:46:19.70
Steve Barnes
right, you're proving this point for him. Congratulations, you did it. ah
01:46:27.22
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:46:27.74
Steve Barnes
and And the last thing i' got to say about Leroy and Charlotte is, um well, here, try to try to um try to logic this one away, Lindsey. Leroy and Charlotte. Charlotte Hanlon is the one who makes the final decision. Like you said, it's women who make the decision. Charlotte was like, we should stay in Derry.
01:46:49.59
Steve Barnes
How? Can you make any sense of that?
01:46:50.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. No.
01:46:53.24
Steve Barnes
Because I i cannot.
01:46:55.22
Lindsey Dunn
No. i The only thing I can think of is plot.
01:46:59.67
Steve Barnes
Yeah, we need we need a sheep farm. Here we go.
01:47:03.96
Lindsey Dunn
But it it seems, that seems silly because they could have just, you know, Shaw, when he was a kid, he moved away from town and then he came back to Derry. So just because Major Hanlon becomes a sheep farmer, Doesn't mean he has to be a sheep farmer right this second.
01:47:20.69
Lindsey Dunn
He could have left town and then, you know, has to come back for whatever reason in the future. But yeah, I don't, did it does not, it's not reasonable at all that this couple who, who care about their son would allow their kid to grow up in Derry unless they just don't understand.
01:47:32.56
Steve Barnes
Mm-mm.
01:47:45.50
Lindsey Dunn
but I mean, Rose is there. So she understands that there's a cycle. I guess they're just thinking in 27 years, ah does she tell them that?
01:47:58.87
Lindsey Dunn
I think she said, oh oh my gosh.
01:47:59.32
Steve Barnes
Yeah, she says like 27 years of peace. That's right.
01:48:03.86
Lindsey Dunn
Especially the way Charlotte is. you would this it does not make sense at all that they would stay be a sheep farmer.
01:48:06.89
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
01:48:10.49
Steve Barnes
None. None.
01:48:14.69
Lindsey Dunn
Nope. no
01:48:17.91
Steve Barnes
Yep, that's the last point I had about them. That's very, and and and you didn't, you weren't able to bring any logic to it, so it remains illogical that they stay in Derry.
01:48:28.92
Lindsey Dunn
not just yeah Not just illogical, but it's another thing where machetes are kind of pounding the wrong mallet with the handle.
01:48:40.11
Lindsey Dunn
They're pounding the wrong thing with with the hammer.
01:48:47.77
Lindsey Dunn
It's like...
01:48:48.12
Steve Barnes
I don't, I don't follow your words, but I do know it exactly what you mean.
01:48:51.86
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, you it's like we have to fit these pieces in a in a way...
01:48:52.06
Steve Barnes
ah There you go.
01:48:56.44
Lindsey Dunn
that makes it really obvious what's going to happen next so that any idiot can figure it out.
01:49:03.70
Steve Barnes
Yep. Especially with Marge's little, little soliloquy at the end there. Yes.
01:49:11.00
Lindsey Dunn
And our last character here is Dick Halloran.
01:49:15.06
Steve Barnes
The man. Yeah. Um, The man who lived. he Now he and not only lived, not only succeeded his mission here.
01:49:20.89
Lindsey Dunn
The boy who lives.
01:49:29.78
Steve Barnes
Well, i mean, did he succeed his mission? I mean, he kind of, but he was able to like do the mind lock thing with Pennywise and he was able to slap Pennywise And we were able to like see visions of the birth of Pennywise as well.
01:49:50.04
Steve Barnes
So, I mean, I think this is pretty significant. I'm sure like, you know how we have, we have a mutual friend, Freddie, who likes to take scenes from the show dark. We like, and put music to the scenes.
01:50:02.01
Steve Barnes
And if somebody is a big fan of welcome to Derry or Pennywise, they have so much material to use. Um, just with this episode alone. But I, I believe that that,
01:50:14.04
Steve Barnes
um I don't know, like that that whole scene with Pennywise being born and that in that wagon was was wonderful. And it was it was Dick's creation.
01:50:24.57
Steve Barnes
Dick did that. so That's the guy we're talking about now. and That's why I'm bringing it up. um
01:50:29.34
Lindsey Dunn
ah but what So what are you what do you what are you talking about exactly?
01:50:34.23
Steve Barnes
The scene with
01:50:35.45
Lindsey Dunn
You said he was born in the care in the wagon. What do you mean by that?
01:50:40.37
Steve Barnes
Pennywise. Because he's talking about his his um he's talking about his life. He's talking about his death. And he's like, is my birth and my death the same thing? And we're supposed to be seeing like the birth of Pennywise. That's supposed to be like the moment that um he embodies the the the spirit of Pennywise in that wagon. It's like when bob gray like wake Bob Gray dies and then Pennywise wakes up in his body.
01:51:13.07
Steve Barnes
That's not really what happens, but we see visuals of that. We see like Pennywise being born for the first time.
01:51:24.38
Lindsey Dunn
I am not following this at all.
01:51:29.21
Steve Barnes
It's just a strange trip I'm on right now, Lindsey. You got to take the same drugs I'm taking to be able to follow this one.
01:51:34.99
Lindsey Dunn
I don't... I do not see this at all. Yeah. I think that what we're seeing in the wagon is is a memory that Dick Halloran manufactures.
01:51:42.86
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:51:48.06
Steve Barnes
Yes.
01:51:49.86
Lindsey Dunn
Not not even a real memory and because...
01:51:50.55
Steve Barnes
Yes. No, you're right.
01:51:53.88
Lindsey Dunn
because he says, I'm not Bob Gray. You know, like he, um and that, so that didn't really happen. Bob Gray was dragged off by wolves.
01:52:02.26
Steve Barnes
No, it didn't, but it was on the screen. There were... There were visuals that was on the screen. They're like these things. we saw them in this episode, whether or not they happened is immaterial. It's like we saw it.
01:52:15.51
Steve Barnes
So these images exist. That's what, ah that's the point I'm trying to make when I was bringing up our friend, Freddie is we have so much cool like visuals here and that,
01:52:28.22
Steve Barnes
moment could be argued as the birth of Pennywise. The first time that Pennywise, even though it's Dick Halloran's hallucination. Yes. I don't discount that, but in and of itself, it's cool.
01:52:45.47
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm. I'm not understanding at all what why you're saying that's the birth of Pennywise.
01:52:54.10
Steve Barnes
Okay. i mean, I'll drop the, I'll drop the point then.
01:52:54.81
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:52:56.63
Steve Barnes
Cause I can't explain it any more than I have, but, um, I mean, I stand by my words,
01:52:57.21
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:53:02.10
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:53:04.95
Steve Barnes
but we're talking about Dick Halloran, Dick Halloran, this selfless individual who loves will, he wants to keep tabs on will and Charlotte, but he wants to keep that a secret for some reason.
01:53:06.33
Lindsey Dunn
All right. So, Dick Halloran, yes.
01:53:14.00
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
01:53:17.62
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. It's like, don't let anyone know about it. But yeah, he had a nice arc in this in this season.
01:53:26.14
Steve Barnes
Yeah, the whole season.
01:53:26.42
Lindsey Dunn
Beginning, we see him as this disinterested party.
01:53:26.88
Steve Barnes
Mm hmm.
01:53:35.58
Lindsey Dunn
i mean, he's grown up in an abusive home. The military is using him for his skills. He's using the military right back.
01:53:44.41
Steve Barnes
h
01:53:44.73
Lindsey Dunn
Um... He's getting special privileges. And he's pretty selfish. He's really just interested in his in himself, what he can get out of this, and not investing too much in anyone.
01:54:01.53
Lindsey Dunn
By the end, we see that he is connected to this group of people. He feels a special kind of way for these Hanlans.
01:54:13.94
Lindsey Dunn
He loves a little Rich. He showed up for his funeral.
01:54:17.40
Steve Barnes
hey
01:54:17.75
Lindsey Dunn
and And he wouldn't normally have done that. And I feel like we're seeing the birth of Dick Halloran as we know him from The Shining. The one that loves kids and that would do anything to rescue a child in his care.
01:54:26.24
Steve Barnes
That's right. Exactly.
01:54:29.54
Steve Barnes
hmm.
01:54:37.08
Lindsey Dunn
And I feel like they did a nice job with his overall arc and where they left him makes it a little more clear how he got to be the Dick Halloran that's in The Shining.
01:54:51.54
Steve Barnes
That's right. Yeah. I had the exact same thoughts too. was like, he was going to commit suicide, but then he's like, no, Will needs me. So I need to stay alive. And then he's like, I'm going to leave this town, but I still kind of want to keep tabs on this family that I helped because I care about them. And yeah, that carries over to Danny and how he cares about Danny and wants to help him.
01:55:16.73
Steve Barnes
So yeah, I absolutely love how they threw that in there.
01:55:24.98
Lindsey Dunn
What else was I going to say about him?
01:55:30.65
Lindsey Dunn
i don't know. do you anything else to say about Dick Halloran?
01:55:34.46
Steve Barnes
I mean, that we haven't already said, I'm i'm not sure. like um i mean, I can just wrap it up by saying that you know we are going to see the Dick Halloran that we we have come to know from Dr. Sleep and from The Shining.
01:55:48.41
Steve Barnes
um We've seen a ah big arc of his growth in this show that leads to that, that I think ties in nicely to it. So that... even though we weren't exactly loving this last episode and maybe we won't look back on the season like a hundred percent fondly, but we're definitely going to look back on this, um, I guess exposition of, of Dick Halloran and Pennywise the clown.
01:56:17.98
Steve Barnes
They've really have succeeded in these two characters and showing like cool arcs, um, and their beginnings and like where they're going to go to.
01:56:27.45
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, I think out of all, i would say out of all of the characters that showed up, Dick Halloran really feels like he belongs in this series. And he he always was part of it. He was a character. he knew about it.
01:56:46.46
Lindsey Dunn
he Dick Halloran knows about the black spot and he's mentioned in a book. i can't remember which one now that he's mentioned in, but he, The Shining, yes.
01:56:56.25
Steve Barnes
The Shining.
01:56:58.12
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. So it it feels like he should have been in this book all along, in this story all along. He fits if it's in perfectly. It's not forced at all. So all the other characters that I'm talking about that have, that feel somewhat forced or some of the things they do don't seem natural.
01:57:16.06
Lindsey Dunn
Dick Calleran is not one of them. I think what I was going to say that I was losing as a he gives a, he winks at the end. And I thought that was nice because remember he kept winking at Leroy and he's, he link winks at the end.
01:57:27.64
Steve Barnes
He is a winker. Yep.
01:57:31.39
Lindsey Dunn
And I can't remember if he winks in the shining, but.
01:57:34.26
Steve Barnes
He does. He winks in Dr. Sleep and The Shining. Yes, he's a winker.
01:57:37.24
Lindsey Dunn
ah Okay.
01:57:38.65
Steve Barnes
ah
01:57:38.94
Lindsey Dunn
All right. Well, there's your video cue, Freddy. You can make a video of Dick Howard all the times he winked.
01:57:48.22
Lindsey Dunn
um So I lied. we We do have a couple more characters here. We have mainly Beverly Marsh and Elfrida Marsh. So how much money do you think they paid Sophie sophie Lillis to show up here at this five seconds?
01:58:06.30
Steve Barnes
Did she have any lines? She might have gotten like, you know, like extra work here where like she just got paid as an extra. I'm kidding.
01:58:13.52
Lindsey Dunn
I'm surprised that, I mean, did she had lines, but all of the lines that she was saying was were spoken off camera, like as Ingrid Kirsch is, cameras on her and she's going, somebody help her somebody help her.
01:58:13.62
Steve Barnes
Of course.
01:58:24.40
Steve Barnes
That's right.
01:58:28.94
Lindsey Dunn
so
01:58:29.29
Steve Barnes
She's background. That's it. Yeah.
01:58:31.90
Lindsey Dunn
so we just see the back of her head, then she turns it around and there she is.
01:58:38.59
Steve Barnes
I got to think that that's the only reason this episode is called winter fire.
01:58:44.47
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:58:44.61
Steve Barnes
I fully believe that is because Beverly Marsh shows up at the end because otherwise this, there's no fire and it's not the winter time, even though he makes it cold, it's not the winter time.
01:58:55.19
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
01:58:56.86
Steve Barnes
So it's gotta be for Beverly.
01:59:00.36
Lindsey Dunn
It's
01:59:03.16
Lindsey Dunn
if i could give up if I could give a worst moment of the episode, it would probably be this. and And part of it, maybe I wouldn't have hated it as much, but like I said, this this moment was spoiled weeks ago.
01:59:16.93
Lindsey Dunn
Somebody decided to leak this picture online, whether it was Reddit or Facebook or maybe all of them.
01:59:20.82
Steve Barnes
h
01:59:24.57
Lindsey Dunn
So I know i don't know what's going on there, HBO Max. Your your your press has leaks. you need to fix that or stop giving people, these YouTubers, early access to these episodes if they're going to spoil it, but yeah, it's like Elfrida Marsh is a patient at Jupiter Hill.
01:59:32.76
Steve Barnes
yeah
01:59:37.11
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
01:59:45.74
Lindsey Dunn
She's been a patient several times and has made more than one suicide attempt because they make the comment, she finally did it. She finally killed herself. So this isn't the first time that they've come out um to take care of her or got a report about her.
02:00:06.17
Lindsey Dunn
And then we see a young girl and a man crying and sobbing as this woman's body is hanging up. I was, I'll tell you what I thought, Steve. I thought a hundred percent the, this woman was Ingrid.
02:00:25.53
Steve Barnes
Right. Me too.
02:00:26.46
Lindsey Dunn
That's what I thought was really going to happen is that Ingrid hangs herself. And that confirms that, Oh, that the Mrs. Kirsch we see isn't the real Mrs. Kirsch.
02:00:37.97
Lindsey Dunn
It's Pennywise. And so I don't know who the, I don't know who the girl or the man was supposed to be, but I, that's what I thought.
02:00:39.82
Steve Barnes
Right.
02:00:45.57
Lindsey Dunn
So no, it's not. It's Beverly Marsh and help freedom. Marsh.
02:00:52.18
Steve Barnes
It was, um, Maybe another Easter egg, how like her dad shrugs her off of her shoulder, like in this motion, like get your hand off me.
02:01:03.32
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:01:03.58
Steve Barnes
Um, because we we know her dad is like abusive towards her.
02:01:03.55
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:01:06.62
Steve Barnes
So that little motion kind of confirms that to us.
02:01:11.61
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, which makes no sense. I mean, it makes sense. We know shes he's abusive, but why would he do that when she's his wife just died and she's comforting him? I don't know.
02:01:26.24
Steve Barnes
They just wanted to just, just to remind you that he sucks.
02:01:29.30
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:01:29.52
Steve Barnes
That's it. Just with one motion. Just he sucks. Remember? Yeah, we remember.
02:01:33.59
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. And the security at Jupiter Hill is airtight because Ingrid Kirsch is just allowed to wander down the hall into anybody's room, even if they've just killed so killed themselves.
02:01:46.33
Steve Barnes
ah
02:01:46.71
Lindsey Dunn
that There's no orderlies that are guiding her or saying, keep this room clear, everybody.
02:01:55.43
Steve Barnes
It's the 80s, man. Come on. It's all good.
02:02:00.66
Steve Barnes
But yeah, would it it it it is a little disappointing how we we don't get any of like the Mrs. Kirsch confirmation. So now we know that like that one in the movie was just Pennywise all along.
02:02:14.84
Steve Barnes
I mean, I think we've, we've already gone through this earlier, like about two hours ago when we were talking about this exact same thing. Um, it, it just, did it didn't really, um, ring any bells for me, I suppose.
02:02:27.26
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
02:02:29.95
Lindsey Dunn
Right. what did you think about the special effects in this episode? We have like the giant bird. We have the fog. the you know did You've had some complaints about the CGI. Did you have complaints about the bird?
02:02:45.18
Lindsey Dunn
i liked the bird myself.
02:02:46.04
Steve Barnes
No, the bird was great. Um, I actually think of, i was thinking it looked more like a dragon and I was like, Oh, HBO loves dragons. So I guess that's why they put a dragon in here because of game of Thrones and house of the dragon and stuff.
02:02:55.46
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
02:03:00.63
Steve Barnes
Cause I thought it looked more like a dragon than a bird personally, especially those wings. Um, no, I had no issue with, um, with any CGI we saw in this episode, I don't think. Um,
02:03:12.14
Steve Barnes
No, I take that back. I i do't i still don't like Pennywise's um big razor teeth mouth. When he does that thing where he like has the the big like three rows of teeth, not a fan of that.
02:03:26.47
Steve Barnes
um Just doesn't look cool.
02:03:27.05
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
02:03:28.23
Steve Barnes
i mean I'd be scared if it came at me, but looking at it on TV, it it doesn't really do much for me. Everything else did, though. Even like when he was doing like the the unnecessary like unveiling of all his different um, manifestations. I mean, I thought that was well done and you could tell it was CGI because of all the drippy stuff coming off of it.
02:03:49.18
Steve Barnes
But even so it looked, it looked cool and it kept me in the story. Um, I think all in all, just the look of Pennywise,
02:03:58.38
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:04:00.06
Steve Barnes
more than anything else is the most striking thing about this show, more than the CGI, more than any special effects, just the look that they were able to achieve with Pennywise, especially with this, um, mostly red and the white eyes look he has.
02:04:15.74
Steve Barnes
Um, I mean, I think that's super successful and I think that image will pay off in the long run. They'll have plenty of t-shirts and stickers sold of that image.
02:04:28.22
Lindsey Dunn
either I like the bird. I think a lot of people were upset that the bird didn't show up at the black spot. But I like i liked them because that's that's when in the books Will sees it.
02:04:35.82
Steve Barnes
Oh, I didn't think about that. Yeah. I'm upset now too. ah
02:04:43.38
Lindsey Dunn
In the books Will sees it when he's a tween and it's a bird with giant balloons on its wings. And then later Mike sees it when he's attacked as a baby. And in the Muschietti movies he's supposed to see it in the movies too.
02:04:55.96
Steve Barnes
And he,
02:04:56.26
Lindsey Dunn
But in
02:04:56.98
Steve Barnes
He was at the black spot too. The bird was at the black spot because the in the book, one of the survivors of the black spot talks about how we saw a big bird take somebody away. I think it might've been, yeah, it was, it was, um, uh, Leroy or Mike, one of the Leroy or will one of the two of them.
02:05:07.01
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
02:05:14.30
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. In the, it's in the books is when the bird shows up.
02:05:17.11
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:05:17.94
Lindsey Dunn
So they, they put it in the TV show, but they put it at the end instead of the black spot incident.
02:05:18.39
Steve Barnes
At the black spot. Yeah.
02:05:25.88
Lindsey Dunn
And it was a cool special effect.
02:05:26.03
Steve Barnes
Mm.
02:05:28.08
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. It looks more like a pterodactyl or a raptor than a bird, but that, that seems, you know, it's going to be a bird that is horrifying.
02:05:32.47
Steve Barnes
yeah
02:05:37.62
Lindsey Dunn
um But yeah, i I thought the fog looked really creepy.
02:05:38.63
Steve Barnes
It worked for me.
02:05:42.14
Lindsey Dunn
The circus parade, the tree, the tree that they're going to. So I thought the production design was was really good.
02:05:51.26
Steve Barnes
Yeah, no complaints here on that.
02:05:53.18
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. All right. I think we're ready to rate our episode. So we're going to have, and oh, unless you, I'm sorry.
02:05:59.67
Steve Barnes
Oh, are we? Okay. Oh. ah
02:06:02.92
Lindsey Dunn
i have what i'll tell I'll just tell you what I have here at the end. I have rate the episode, rate the season.
02:06:09.37
Steve Barnes
Oh, no, no, no.
02:06:09.78
Lindsey Dunn
absolutely Yeah.
02:06:10.05
Steve Barnes
I'm not surprised by that.
02:06:10.74
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
02:06:11.95
Steve Barnes
I'm just saying, oh, no, I got to rate the episode. Because it's scary.
02:06:14.58
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Yes. Here we are.
02:06:19.45
Lindsey Dunn
Yes. Rate the episode.
02:06:22.48
Steve Barnes
I guess me first, then, the way you're pausing. Okay. All right.
02:06:24.80
Lindsey Dunn
Sure.
02:06:26.17
Steve Barnes
Um...
02:06:30.07
Steve Barnes
Yeah, like I said, it was a little little foggy in this one. I think I'm going to have to go back to the beginning um because that I gave the the first episode a two out of five.
02:06:42.74
Steve Barnes
and think I'm going to get at this last episode two turtles out of five as well. um I've been given these last few episodes like, you know, five turtles each, four turtles each. Like i've been loving it.
02:06:56.92
Steve Barnes
I was really invested even last episode. I was totally into it. I think that the fog has lifted and I'm out of the dead lights. Now I have clarity.
02:07:10.10
Steve Barnes
So I'm just going to give this episode two out of five turtles. How about yourself, Lindsey?
02:07:16.45
Lindsey Dunn
I'm going to give this episode three out of five.
02:07:20.25
Steve Barnes
Okay.
02:07:21.21
Lindsey Dunn
I really wanted to like this finale more than I did. And I thought it had, and I think I've made it clear in this podcast, there's many things I liked about it. The production design, the horror elements, um some some of the characters, but the the dialogue was so bad.
02:07:42.65
Lindsey Dunn
And just some of the plot holes, felt so hammered in. There was plot holes and then there were plot things they tried to hammer in that feel forced that shouldn't happen in a season finale.
02:07:50.94
Steve Barnes
hu
02:07:58.14
Steve Barnes
Yeah, it sucks when things don't end strong.
02:07:58.17
Lindsey Dunn
So...
02:08:02.30
Steve Barnes
you know
02:08:03.09
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:08:03.35
Steve Barnes
Especially something you're enjoying. If it doesn't have a strong ending, it kind of kind of hurts a little bit.
02:08:07.65
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I mean, I definitely enjoyed watching it last night. I was very excited to watch the finale.
02:08:12.98
Steve Barnes
Yeah, me too.
02:08:14.94
Lindsey Dunn
had... my giant diet Coke and i was, and my bowl of popcorn for real, not, I was actually eating butter popcorn and enjoying every single bite and enjoying every moment of the show.
02:08:19.45
Steve Barnes
ah
02:08:24.62
Steve Barnes
Heck yeah.
02:08:28.83
Lindsey Dunn
But then when I had, when I had to really look at it, honestly, i just thought, Oh, there's, there's things that just make me flinch.
02:08:40.28
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. So we are going to now rate the season as a whole.
02:08:45.34
Steve Barnes
All right. Okay.
02:08:48.06
Lindsey Dunn
and okay go ahead
02:08:48.34
Steve Barnes
Well,
02:08:51.51
Steve Barnes
okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm going ahead. Here we go.
02:08:53.65
Lindsey Dunn
yeah
02:08:53.87
Steve Barnes
She gave me permission. Um, yeah. Stephen King's universe, Stephen King's stuff. Um, a lot of times the premises of his books, as much as I love them are really silly because
02:09:11.45
Steve Barnes
straight up. Okay. We have a cemetery and you bury your pet there. They come back to life. Wow. Um, you know, we're, we got this evil clown that comes alive every 27 years and kills kids. I mean, they're, they're flimsy premises.
02:09:26.20
Steve Barnes
What I've realized with Stephen King and with a lot of his shows and movies too, is the characters are the lifeboats and the story is the anchor.
02:09:40.06
Steve Barnes
Because it's always the characters that I walk away loving and especially the character interactions. And in here, it's the same thing too. Like I like all these characters and I loved watching them all play together and I love watching them hate each other.
02:09:55.06
Steve Barnes
But the story itself, you know, and not that much to it. um I mean, the story really works in your heart, but not really so much in your head, i think.
02:10:08.15
Steve Barnes
So, I don't think it's a total loss or anything. i I did enjoy it overall and I did enjoy the season overall more than I enjoyed the finale or the first episode.
02:10:22.81
Steve Barnes
Like the middle part was, was very good. So in a sense it was like pancakes, which like at first like you're well, no, it's not like pancakes. Nevermind. Forget that analogy. It's not like pancakes. I'm giving the season three turtles out of five altogether because I feel it's directly middle down the road.
02:10:41.92
Steve Barnes
It's there's some points to it that are silly and we talked about all that this episode, but there are some really special moments to this and there are some really good moments.
02:10:53.53
Steve Barnes
There are some really good episodes. Episodes five and six and seven were very strong. And so because of that, I think it kind of carries a season for me. So I think three overall is very fair.
02:11:07.88
Lindsey Dunn
I'm also giving it three out of five. So since my reasons are very similar to you, I'm just going to say, yeah, that's, that's what I'm giving it.
02:11:18.70
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. I think, I think you said it all really. I think you were trying to think of the compliment sandwich, but um you know, when you were thinking, of yeah but yeah, I am looking forward to next, the next seasons.
02:11:25.30
Steve Barnes
Oh, maybe, maybe so.
02:11:33.90
Lindsey Dunn
We're hoping it will be renewed. I am. and and
02:11:37.26
Steve Barnes
I'm sure, I'm sure it will be. I'm not hoping, I'm just kind of positive it will be.
02:11:40.98
Lindsey Dunn
yeah Yeah. I mean, I've just, I've had too many shows get canceled at this point. I never take anything for granted.
02:11:48.07
Steve Barnes
Oh, good point.
02:11:50.33
Lindsey Dunn
So, but yeah, it was, I'm hoping that, it might be that once you go, we once we go back, we'll say, hey, we're wrong.
02:12:01.12
Lindsey Dunn
It was better than we thought. But right now, I'm, I'm saving some of the adulation for maybe future seasons.
02:12:03.02
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
02:12:12.76
Steve Barnes
I wonder how will work on a binge rewatch. Um, because me and Charlotte have plans. She hasn't seen past episode two yet, but a couple of days ago she was making plans with me to rewatch or to, you know, watch the rest of the season.
02:12:28.15
Steve Barnes
So I'm going to be doing that with Charlotte. We're going like a binge rewatch. So I'll report back to you, Lindsey, what we think about that. If that helps, this helps the rewatch or if it hurts it, you never know.
02:12:34.12
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:12:38.62
Lindsey Dunn
And you saying that makes me think, would I do a binge rewatch? And I don't think I would, which makes me, makes me realize that, I mean, I liked the show. Maybe I would watch rewatch it again when season two comes out, but I don't love it. Like I do some other shows that you think, I can't wait to watch it again. i don't think I do.
02:13:05.53
Steve Barnes
I feel the same way too. If it was just me, I wouldn't rewatch it either. But this is my daughter. My daughter wants to rewatch it with me.
02:13:10.81
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:13:12.80
Steve Barnes
So of course I'm going to do that.
02:13:14.39
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:13:14.60
Steve Barnes
And just like with you, like if somebody from your family was like, or somebody that you love wanted to watch Welcome to Derry and never seen it before, I'm sure you would probably do that as well.
02:13:24.86
Steve Barnes
Not of your own volition, but you know, out of curiosity or just for an event with a friend.
02:13:32.12
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Now we have moment And i'm so I'm sticking a new one in here, Steve, that i didn't tell you about. So I'll go first for that one. But I want to do top moment of the season.
02:13:41.88
Steve Barnes
Okay.
02:13:43.76
Lindsey Dunn
So your top, out of all the show, top moment of the season.
02:13:44.47
Steve Barnes
Okay.
02:13:46.84
Lindsey Dunn
And then top horror moment of the season. Like which horror scare do you think was the most effective in your book?
02:13:51.05
Steve Barnes
Oh, fun. Okay.
02:13:55.00
Steve Barnes
You definitely go first then. Okay.
02:13:56.18
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. So top moment of the season. Looking at everything... I have to go back to Marge and Rich in the cafeteria eating lunch.
02:14:10.49
Lindsey Dunn
That moment when the two of them sit with their over their green jellos and bond and he gives her the eye patch and then they get to, you know, they're talking about the pirate and the knight and they just have the this cutest interaction that was not cringe worthy at all.
02:14:12.95
Steve Barnes
Okay.
02:14:16.44
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:14:36.48
Lindsey Dunn
It felt very natural, very childlike, and it was just sweet.
02:14:40.75
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:14:41.88
Lindsey Dunn
The two of them there and then the patty cakes coming up in that moment when you're wondering, are they going to, are they going, is she going to be a jerk and go with the patty cakes or is she going to stay?
02:14:46.42
Steve Barnes
Oh, God.
02:14:55.67
Lindsey Dunn
And that's the moment that Rich really falls in love with Marge, I think.
02:15:00.31
Steve Barnes
Yep.
02:15:01.21
Lindsey Dunn
But that, for the whole show. I think that's my very favorite moment.
02:15:07.31
Steve Barnes
That's tough one to top. That's great. Yeah, because the the way that scene ends, too, with her showing the eye and saying that she's defining herself as a freak was great. So, yeah.
02:15:16.84
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
02:15:18.42
Steve Barnes
um I guess for me, maybe it wasn't the the particular moment that this happened, but the whole situations around it and just the event itself, ah the return of Maddie.
02:15:30.53
Lindsey Dunn
Hmm.
02:15:32.89
Steve Barnes
I thought that was great. And it was great the way that he popped out of the tent. It was great with the way they had the way that had the interactions with the kids when they thought he was Maddie. When he turned into Pennywise, that was great.
02:15:45.72
Steve Barnes
um Everything about that was great. The fact that he even did that, the fact that the show went there and did that to us and kind of played into the fan service some. I thought that was very well done too. So Maddie's return.
02:16:00.44
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, that was a journey.
02:16:02.97
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:16:03.13
Lindsey Dunn
Because there there was that rumor, is Maddie still alive?
02:16:07.31
Steve Barnes
Yep.
02:16:07.64
Lindsey Dunn
and then but the But the way that it was done was a total surprise. Not something I expected to see. I didn't expect to see little Maddie Clements again. And I especially didn't expect to see him turn into Pennywise.
02:16:19.42
Lindsey Dunn
But we got it. And they they nailed that moment. that's
02:16:22.58
Steve Barnes
Sure.
02:16:23.14
Lindsey Dunn
That's a great pick. Okay, top horror moment of the season. So for you, what was your biggest scare the biggest moment that you thought was well done i am going to go ahead and choose the ronnie birth scene i believe this i believe this was in episode two so this is going back a little bit and unfortunately it's in the same episode as cemetery gate but we or maybe it's maybe that was a okay it's not We had two big, but we had two big scares in that.
02:16:42.29
Steve Barnes
Oh, good call.
02:16:54.39
Steve Barnes
No, it's not. It's it's not. Nope.
02:16:59.26
Lindsey Dunn
We had the Ronnie scare and we had the pickle dad scare. And this is the one that happens in Ronnie's room where she's in her bed and there's that moment where she's suffocated under her bed sheets and it turns into a uterus and she's bored and there's goo all over the floor.
02:17:03.83
Steve Barnes
Right.
02:17:13.24
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
02:17:18.10
Lindsey Dunn
and it seems to last forever. And even though it was... a CGI practical effect. I felt like it was really gross.
02:17:28.92
Lindsey Dunn
And so that's, that's, that's my pick. Ronnie's rebirth scene.
02:17:35.89
Steve Barnes
That's solid, yes. I agree i agree with that. um yeahp I guess my, because I wasn't prepared for this either, but when you talk about the scary scenes, I think like that the first thing that comes to my mind, and I think it's stuck here, is um the image of Pennywise sleeping in his lair and like in all that blood. You can just see like his eyes.
02:18:02.01
Steve Barnes
And then like when he wakes up, Um, I just, I love that scene. I love that image. i love everything about that. So I'm going to just simply put that one as my scare.
02:18:16.09
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, that was gross.
02:18:18.02
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
02:18:18.29
Lindsey Dunn
And very effective way they they put all that together.
02:18:18.73
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
02:18:23.35
Steve Barnes
And then his costume, like from the rest of the season after that, um, it, it carries over as well. And I like that a lot. I like that about it too. It died as clothes red.
02:18:33.85
Lindsey Dunn
bathed in a lake of crimson.
02:18:35.93
Steve Barnes
ah Lovely.
02:18:39.32
Lindsey Dunn
All right, so now we're going to have MVP character. and mvp MVP character of this episode and MVP character of the season.
02:18:49.72
Steve Barnes
All right. And I first, I guess.
02:18:51.15
Lindsey Dunn
Sure.
02:18:52.57
Steve Barnes
All right. Okay. You're not going to agree with me on this one, but. I'm going to give my MVP of this episode to young ghostly rich for two reasons. One, because he gave the finger to Pennywise. We got to love that.
02:19:10.94
Steve Barnes
And then two, because he was the last benevolent force that we needed to get that spike into the ground. However far-fetched it is. We don't, I mean that, that whole rich resurrection thing is just completely far-fetched BS.
02:19:28.58
Steve Barnes
Nonetheless, I love Rich a lot. I was very happy to see him again. um i Despite the corniness of the of some of the funeral stuff, I liked seeing him at the funeral too because he looked nice. His hair was good.
02:19:42.29
Steve Barnes
He had on his shirt and everything, of that red shirt. But yeah, just the just Rich. This episode, his return, he did it for me. I give him MVP.
02:19:52.57
Lindsey Dunn
You saying the hair makes me think, well, we should have had a Polly moment then where he could have come back and shown her his good hair as a ghost too.
02:19:57.88
Steve Barnes
ah
02:20:01.33
Lindsey Dunn
i mean, he did get to show his hair, but.
02:20:05.08
Steve Barnes
Yeah, why didn't he come back too?
02:20:05.12
Lindsey Dunn
He looked.
02:20:06.92
Steve Barnes
You're right. he It should have been like the bear guy, rich on one hand, poly on the other hand.
02:20:07.42
Lindsey Dunn
he look
02:20:12.66
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah, or Polly could have shown up at the black spot and helped with that escape.
02:20:17.69
Steve Barnes
Yeah, exactly.
02:20:17.69
Lindsey Dunn
But, eh.
02:20:18.44
Steve Barnes
Meh.
02:20:18.57
Lindsey Dunn
All right. Missed opportunity. Let us know if you need our help, Muschiettes.
02:20:23.90
Steve Barnes
ah The Hoosier MVP of the episode then.
02:20:26.68
Lindsey Dunn
All right. My MVP of this episode is going to be a gentleman that I have yet to acclaim this whole, really, season.
02:20:38.79
Lindsey Dunn
I'm giving it to Pennywise. You know, you
02:20:41.40
Steve Barnes
Oh, yeah. Okay. Uh-huh.
02:20:42.36
Lindsey Dunn
You award gave Pennywise an award one episode.
02:20:46.07
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:20:46.84
Lindsey Dunn
I thought he did a super job being super villain.
02:20:53.27
Steve Barnes
yeah
02:20:53.69
Lindsey Dunn
And I especially liked his moment when he woke up in the clown cart and got slapped around. But he was he was as epic of a villain as we deserve in this finale.
02:21:10.31
Steve Barnes
He's a hornsman too. He was playing the tuba this episode. That was great. He's a musician.
02:21:16.13
Lindsey Dunn
That's right. Well, I mean, I called him the Pied Piper. he was He was leading the kids. That was very very appropriate of a fairy tale character.
02:21:25.53
Steve Barnes
That's fair. Okay.
02:21:26.74
Lindsey Dunn
Okay.
02:21:27.11
Steve Barnes
I'm glad you get, i was thinking you're gonna give it to Leroy this episode because you were, you were glazing him a lot earlier.
02:21:29.78
Lindsey Dunn
Oh, no.
02:21:31.79
Steve Barnes
So I was sure it was going to be him.
02:21:32.73
Lindsey Dunn
Oh, glazing. I would have, if i if you had picked Pennywise, I would have gone with my number two, which would be Marge.
02:21:42.01
Steve Barnes
Okay, okay.
02:21:42.84
Lindsey Dunn
I already gave Leroy an MVP. You know, I definitely always try to spread the love around.
02:21:49.43
Steve Barnes
Yeah, you got to do that.
02:21:50.29
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Okay. MVP character of the season. I can go first this time. All right.
02:21:58.55
Steve Barnes
Sure, go for it.
02:21:59.66
Lindsey Dunn
I am picking Chris Chalk as Dick Alleran.
02:22:03.58
Steve Barnes
Solid, solid choice.
02:22:05.61
Lindsey Dunn
I've already explained why i admire his arcs. I won't go over that again, but I thought, that, yeah, I just appreciate this performance, and i like the tie-in to Dick Halloran and The Shining, and he, yeah, he's a he's a good character, and we will always appreciate him in our hearts.
02:22:34.36
Steve Barnes
he has He has a house in our heart, Lindsey.
02:22:36.54
Lindsey Dunn
Oh, boy. i was going to say something about that, because you mentioned the lifeboat, or the anchor, and I'm like, Yeah, well, Dekaleron has a home in the heart.
02:22:48.44
Steve Barnes
ah
02:22:50.96
Lindsey Dunn
Who's your MVP character of the season?
02:22:51.29
Steve Barnes
Well... Of the season. So yeah, like Dick Halloran was definitely my runner up for sure. And, um, but I wasn't going to say him.
02:23:02.65
Steve Barnes
i would, I would have said him if he was my mount late guy, we would have both held hands and said Dick Halloran. But um for the season, when it comes to like every episode, who do I like the most? It's got to be Miss Marge.
02:23:16.53
Steve Barnes
Marge is my lady. So, I mean, she gets it just for for spunk and for for being a freak, like proclaiming herself a freak and...
02:23:26.76
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
02:23:27.83
Steve Barnes
her, her arc that she went through, we know Dick Halloran went through an arc, but so did she. And this is a good time to, um, go back on something we didn't talk about with Pennywise, who's your MVP of this episode and Marge, who's my MVP of the season.
02:23:46.36
Steve Barnes
So Pennywise said he called the three girls, the fool, the failure and the freak. And he, he didn't say which one was which.
02:23:58.78
Steve Barnes
So my suspicion is that by using um elimination, i would say Lily is the freak first off um because that's just what the town proclaims her as is like crazy and the freak.
02:23:58.84
Lindsey Dunn
That's true.
02:24:13.49
Steve Barnes
So Lily's the freak hands down. So it's like, who is the fool and who is the failure? So I don't really see either one of them really being foolish, but I do see a lot of failure with Marge and where Pennywise would probably,
02:24:29.05
Steve Barnes
try to capitalize on that. We're like, Oh, you're not popular. You didn't get with your popular friends or whatever. So I think it's Marge. That's the failure. Therefore, Ronnie is leftover as the fool.
02:24:41.46
Steve Barnes
Do you agree with that? or you think differently?
02:24:43.92
Lindsey Dunn
Well, I hate to poke holes in your theory, Steve, but i when you first said that, i dinner I was thinking, oh, yeah, there's that.
02:24:48.95
Steve Barnes
Okay.
02:24:56.76
Lindsey Dunn
But when you said freak, I was like, freak has to be Marge, because in the cafeteria, she says, i am a freak. Remember?
02:25:04.94
Steve Barnes
Huh. I do remember. oh
02:25:07.93
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. So fool and failure. This is a good question. This, I guess this would be like a good litmus test. you know You're at a party.
02:25:16.57
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:25:17.71
Lindsey Dunn
Everybody has to say, um I don't know. I would think that i wonder if they, these are words these girls have used to describe themselves because Ronnie, you know I could see Ronnie maybe saying, I feel like a fool.
02:25:32.09
Steve Barnes
I don't. Hmm.
02:25:37.45
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm.
02:25:37.88
Lindsey Dunn
You know, maybe that's a line she said. So maybe these are words that they used for the to describe themselves. And, you know, because you know how people give themselves negative talk.
02:25:49.88
Steve Barnes
I could see Lily calling herself a failure as well. So that, yeah, that kind of does make sense.
02:25:54.20
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. But Marge did use the word freak as anym a word of empowerment. So would Pennywise use that?
02:26:00.06
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:26:02.06
Lindsey Dunn
I don't know. This is a good question.
02:26:07.10
Steve Barnes
But all in all, though, we know that Dick Halloran and what was Marge's last name? Truman? It's not Tozer.
02:26:13.45
Lindsey Dunn
Truman.
02:26:14.65
Steve Barnes
Yeah, Marge Truman and Dick Halloran.
02:26:14.68
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:26:17.09
Lindsey Dunn
Mm-hmm.
02:26:17.53
Steve Barnes
Best of the season.
02:26:19.90
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Okay. So that comes into, let's talk predictions. You've already predicted it will be renewed. I'm hoping it will be renewed.
02:26:29.88
Steve Barnes
ah
02:26:30.07
Lindsey Dunn
But they've set us up for season two. So what do you, I think we've already kind of talked about some of this, but did you have anything new to add that came to you this episode.
02:26:39.03
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:26:45.99
Steve Barnes
Uh, no, not really. It just seems confirmed that Pennywise is going to be going back looking for the Bainbridges, um, looking for the Truman's looking for their families to try to off their parents.
02:26:59.32
Steve Barnes
And
02:27:03.06
Steve Barnes
here's an interesting prediction. This, this just did just come to me, Lindsey, like a lightning bolt. We know how Pennywise doesn't see time linearly. He doesn't know what the beginning and or middle is just kind of all is to him.
02:27:18.33
Steve Barnes
So we maybe we'll get some flashbacks next season, even though we'll be like in 1935 19, 1935. That's what it is Maybe Pennywise will have some memories or maybe they'll show up in some sort of like memory way because Pennywise knows who Richie Tozier is.
02:27:38.60
Steve Barnes
Therefore, in 1935, he'll remember who all these kids are, too.
02:27:45.66
Lindsey Dunn
Okay, well... Here's something to consider. I know they said that he is, um that he sees the past, present, and the future the same, but it feels like because they made these times go backwards, I'm wondering if what really happened is Pennywise
02:28:17.05
Lindsey Dunn
dies in 2017 and he's actually moving forward backwards.
02:28:21.63
Steve Barnes
E.D.A. 88, 89.
02:28:28.26
Lindsey Dunn
like He's moving forward in time. So he goes from 2017 1989. Then goes to goes to 35. And then um you know nineteen eighty nine
02:28:37.91
Steve Barnes
eighty eight aja
02:28:39.13
Lindsey Dunn
a nine then he goes to sixtyt two then he goes to thirty-five and then the end of his life is actually 1908. Well, not the end because he was, he was born before that, but I wondered if he's actually not jumping around, but he's actually going backwards.
02:28:59.09
Lindsey Dunn
Like that's like, this is his survival mechanism is going backwards. And maybe you've already thought of that, but it's there's in the after special they have at the end of the episode, they always have the mushy at ease talking.
02:29:13.37
Steve Barnes
Yeah.
02:29:15.22
Lindsey Dunn
And he's Andy said something about what if Pennywise is going backwards in time. So it felt like he's actually moving backwards. Like maybe he was. It's I'm i'm happy this is hurting my brain now. He can't have been born in 2017.
02:29:37.21
Lindsey Dunn
But they they almost made it sound like.
02:29:37.40
Steve Barnes
No.
02:29:41.27
Lindsey Dunn
What we've been viewing as him. being reborn later is actually him being reborn earlier. So I don't understand exactly how it works, but I was, yeah.
02:29:51.67
Steve Barnes
Well, to him, his, his death and his birth are the same thing. They occurred on the same day. So he was killed in 2017. He as Pennywise was born in that wagon in 1908.
02:30:07.48
Steve Barnes
So all of his like memories are collective between 1908 2017. Like,
02:30:15.58
Lindsey Dunn
like he But he wasn't born then because the little boy, the little urchin boy is there.
02:30:22.52
Steve Barnes
Pennywise, what we know as Pennywise was born in 1908. That's what I was trying to harp on, the birth of Pennywise. Because before he became Pennywise, he was just shapeless. He was just a shapeshifter.
02:30:37.05
Steve Barnes
Once he became Pennywise, he liked it.
02:30:37.15
Lindsey Dunn
Right. But his consciousness his consciousness is the same, though. It's not like there's a different consciousness when he's Pennywise.
02:30:41.86
Steve Barnes
Of course.
02:30:44.80
Lindsey Dunn
Right.
02:30:45.54
Steve Barnes
That's right. That's right.
02:30:47.19
Lindsey Dunn
Okay. Well, i I didn't mean when I said was saying Pennywise, I mean it. I don't, I wasn't, I didn't mean. um Well, I'm thinking about it, the entity, not just Pennywise.
02:30:54.20
Steve Barnes
Well, I mean penny Pennywise only existed between 1908 and 2017. That's the only time Pennywise existed. So that's what we're focused on here.
02:31:09.59
Steve Barnes
Yeah. Okay. Well, i mean, it's like, you know, Jesus and God. It's like, think of Pennywise as Jesus and it is God.
02:31:16.99
Lindsey Dunn
He's one form one form of the entity is Pennywise Yeah Right Anyway I'm just saying He might be getting older As he's getting younger Like maybe he's like a Benjamin Button type Yeah
02:31:20.31
Steve Barnes
Exactly. Exactly. And our story is focused on Pennywise.
02:31:36.02
Steve Barnes
Oh, I didn't catch that. Oh, that's interesting. i don't know how that would work actually, but it it would work just like Benjamin Button, I guess.
02:31:42.35
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah
02:31:46.26
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:31:46.54
Steve Barnes
Let's go rewatch that and see how it works.
02:31:48.15
Lindsey Dunn
and ah yeah It almost feels like the more you try to explain, the the worse it will get. So I'm not sure if we need all of this explaining.
02:31:55.33
Steve Barnes
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
02:31:57.94
Lindsey Dunn
I'm not sure why they put it in But if they're going to do it, they have to do it well. And we will judge them.
02:32:05.08
Steve Barnes
Yeah, we will, and harshly do. Two turtles.
02:32:12.36
Lindsey Dunn
Alright, well do you have any plugs or closing announcements?
02:32:18.81
Steve Barnes
yeah i guess I guess it's pretty pertinent here because this is our last episode of It Welcome to Derry. um and Next episode, um I'll be releasing in two weeks because I've been releasing all these episodes weekly because we've been having a lot of fun watching them and then recording them the very next night. I'm going to slip back to a bi-weekly slash monthly schedule. The next episode you hear will be the return of Sarah Ellis and She'll be coming back and we'll be talking about songs about time once again. And keep me up in your feed, sweet child of time. Keep me subscribed. You might not see episodes every week, but you will see episodes. I guarantee it.
02:33:02.79
Lindsey Dunn
Okay, the next thing I will probably be putting out after this will be the part two of Stranger Things will come out Christmas Day, and then I'll be recording with Harrison after that, and we'll also do so after the finale.
02:33:24.89
Lindsey Dunn
And then after that, it'll be end-of-the-year stuff, some more best-of-the-year lists, and items like that, but I won't be recapping a show again for a while unless we get the Struel Peter starting up.
02:33:39.03
Lindsey Dunn
If we get that, we will see.
02:33:40.34
Steve Barnes
Maybe January, we'll see.
02:33:41.88
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. But it's, it's been a little hectic pace doing these weekly releases, but yeah.
02:33:51.19
Steve Barnes
It has been. I've enjoyed it a lot. um i couldn't I couldn't keep this up every week doing this.
02:33:52.92
Lindsey Dunn
Yeah.
02:33:56.80
Steve Barnes
I mean, because we both have full-time jobs and full-time families and stuff too. But yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed it and I hope we can do it again sometime.
02:34:05.85
Lindsey Dunn
Seems like back like the old days, Steve. we were Remember when we podcasted Dark?
02:34:09.48
Steve Barnes
Oh yeah.
02:34:11.14
Lindsey Dunn
We were doing those bu weekly releases.
02:34:14.97
Steve Barnes
Yes, we were. Yep. And you make it very easy for me, Lindsey. i got i'm goingnna I'm going to say thank you here at the end because you make this very easy for me. um You're putting out the um the formats and you're doing our introductions and our outros.
02:34:29.15
Steve Barnes
And I'm just giving you my thoughts along the way. So you make this very easy and that makes it fun for me. So thank you.
02:34:36.73
Lindsey Dunn
Well, it's been fun for me, and I hope it's been fun for all of you, our listeners. Thank you once again for joining us for this episode of Welcome to Derry. May all the clowns you meet be kind. May all the friends you met be kept safe in your hearts where they have a home.
02:34:54.14
Lindsey Dunn
And we wish you a happy rest of 2025. Goodbye, everybody. good-bye everybody
02:35:00.66
Steve Barnes
Yes, yes. Bye-bye.
Comments